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In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

nytimes.com

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Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#11

Post by PakG1 »

kleiba wrote: post #9

Oh, too bad. :-( Given the headline, I was hoping for an article on how technically inclined people are not ridiculed as "geeks" or "nerds" in China, but are rather accepted as contributors to key aspects of life in the 21st century. Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably in the New York Times. Apparently we're not as "21 century" as I thought.

I think this community really needs to get over this. Individuals, groups of individuals, or even entire communities do not get to determine the definitions of words or how words are used. Words usage is determined by society at large. If this is how hacking is used by society, then that's what it is. That's how the English language works. That's why the word xerox is an acceptable verb. That's why the meaning of the word gay has changed.

English evolves according to how its speakers and writers use it. Let it go.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#12

Post by prollyignored »

jckt wrote: post #6
outside1234 wrote: post #2

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice. Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us. What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business pra…

> (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases.

Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective.

Being a hippie peace freak is just silly.

> "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.

True that.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#13

Post by rdl »

prollyignored wrote: post #12
jckt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business pra…

> (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases. Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective. Being a hippie peace freak is just silly. > "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days…

Actually, a lot of white people visit Africa and do a lot of good, still -- both businesspeople and (usually religious) charities and development organizations. Largely enough good to make up for the big NGOs and UN, and some of the legacy of colonialism and the cold war.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#14

Post by andridk »

Crackers exist and it is a shame that the western world punishes security research and shifts the blame towards the "hackers" instead of trying to get these vulnerabilities fixed, where they originated.

In the coming (or ongoing) cyber-war - who wins? The countries that welcomed crackers or those who jail them?

Note: I am not advocating breaking into people's computers. Just a community that welcomes security input.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#15

Post by meric »

olalonde wrote: post #7

Meta: it seems the New York Times really didn't appreciate getting blocked from China a few months ago. All the articles I read on HN that depict China negatively seem to come from the NYT. Or maybe other publications that aren't blocked in China actively avoid those topics?

Or, now that they are blocked, they have nothing to lose by criticising China, unlike other media corporations.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#16

Post by culturestate »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #5
sillysaurus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not that bad here In a business context?

Ya, I know people who start businesses and they aren't completely screwed. Taxis also don't take me for the scenic route, at least in Beijing or Shanghai.

I've never had a problem with a taxi driver in Shenzhen or Guangzhou, either - it's certainly better than, say, Rio.

I'm not going to pretend that doing business in China is "easy" or that China doesn't sometimes boggle the mind with absurd and archaic decision making paradigms, but it's not exactly the wild west anymore.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#18

Post by lmm »

PakG1 wrote: post #11
kleiba wrote: post #9

Oh, too bad. :-( Given the headline, I was hoping for an article on how technically inclined people are not ridiculed as "geeks" or "nerds" in China, but are rather accepted as contributors to key aspects of life in the 21st century. Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably in the New York Times. Apparently we're not as "21 century" as I thought.

I think this community really needs to get over this. Individuals, groups of individuals, or even entire communities do not get to determine the definitions of words or how words are used. Words usage is determined by society at large. If this is how hacking is used by society, then that's what it is. That's how the English language works. That's why the word xerox is an acceptable verb. That's why the meaning of the…

The word gay changed precisely because a small community refused to "let it go".

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#19

Post by peterkelly »

kleiba wrote: post #9

Oh, too bad. :-( Given the headline, I was hoping for an article on how technically inclined people are not ridiculed as "geeks" or "nerds" in China, but are rather accepted as contributors to key aspects of life in the 21st century. Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably in the New York Times. Apparently we're not as "21 century" as I thought.

> Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably

We lost this one a long time ago...

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#20

Post by eitally »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #5
sillysaurus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not that bad here In a business context?

Ya, I know people who start businesses and they aren't completely screwed. Taxis also don't take me for the scenic route, at least in Beijing or Shanghai.

I agree. We operate in several areas of mainland China (Shenzhen, Hangzhou, and Kunshan, near Shanghai), and we have a major IT office in Shenzhen. Their general responsibility is the combination software/hardware hacking to build factory control systems, and the impossible-to-overestimate benefit of having those people perform that specific function is precisely their can-do attitude and willingness to hack. This in contrast to, say, India, where we have a much larger dev+ops organization that generally spends their time executing assigned tasks rather than engaging in creative problem solving. Yes, there are pitfalls to operating in China re: government/law/IP risk, but on the other hand, it seems nearly everyone outside party politics has learned hacking skills simply in order to survive. It's an incredibly valuable market, and this attitude along with a decent formal education system and ubiquitous internet access is propelling it full steam ahead.

tl;dr: Yes, there are problems, but there are a lot of upsides to operating in China, too, besides even the $ (either the huge market or cost savings, depending who you are).

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