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If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

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Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#11

H'm, I have indulged in this as a thought experiment plenty of times, and actually think it might ease the pressure of immigration, specially on countries like the United States. Although I suppose the complications of things like benefits and medical care make it probably un-implementable in practice. I'm reasonably well off, childless, and if I were given a free choice of any country to emigrate to, I'm fairly sure…

Yes I believe most of the people, especially the most poverty stricken ones, would stay put How would they move if they can't support themselves? Food is the priority Of course, this may lead to a different balance of people in countries, so it may work from that side. Well as a citizen of two countries (one in the EU) I am quite mobile myself, but sometimes the language is a bigger barrier than the 'official' border…

Sometimes overpopulation and a lack of education is an important reason for poverty. If a lot of the more well-off people in underdeveloped countries freely travelled to the more developed ones, a percentage of them would make efforts to improve the lot of people in their native countries, since they wouldn't have to jump through a ton of hoops to go back to living in the more developed countries.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#12
This comment over at Bryan Caplan's blog pretty much sums it up nicely: (http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/open_borders_in....)

1. Poverty is endogenous to population, not exogenous. Admitting a flood of poor immigrants to your country makes your country poor. All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something* but the people themselves.

Also your stuff about willing employers and landlords is incomplete, because those people do not keep immigrants in cages. The immigrants impose stiff externalities on other people in the destination country, who are not able to adjust their costs and benefits vis-a-vis immigrants by lowering their wages or raising their rents.

2. Restricting immigration is necessary to avert the destruction of the high-capital-to-worker society which is uniquely conducive to technological progress. Even if mass immigration may please some poor immigrants in the short run, it is 'eating the seed corn.' As commenters have pointed out to you before, virtually all the world population growth in the last two centuries has been enabled by the diffusion of technology from advanced countries to poor ones (and one reason most formerly-poor countries are still poor is that they put nearly all their economic growth into population growth rather than capital accumulation, so they stayed near the Malthusian limit!). Transforming all the advanced countries into poor countries by mass immigration will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Anyway, hard-core utilitarianism is a suicide pact; clearly non-adaptive. The moral duty to refrain from harming strangers, which is a form of cooperation (offer to participate in 'mutual altruism') does not extend to a duty to relieve all strangers' opportunity costs of not having been born or invited into the community.

Also, there are diminishing marginal returns to immigration. The first few poor immigrants may enjoy big wage gains over their home-country wages (though higher cost of living in rich countries will mitigate those gains) but as more immigrants arrive to compete down wages and fill all the jobs enabled by the available industrial capital, each new immigrant gains less and less over staying home. (We know for sure there isn't much demand for low-wage workers in rich countries-- low wages==low demand!) It is therefore misleading to suggest that open immigration will relieve much poverty around the world, because only a modest amount of migration will force the marginal gains to zero. Sadly, by that point, the quality of life for citizens of the (formerly) rich countries will have dimished toward poor-country levels. So open borders means economically destroying rich-country citizens to benefit a small percentage of world poor people. Temporarily.

3. You tend to destroy your own credibility when you lie, even by omission or by statistical legerdemain. Poor immigrants pay much less in taxes than they (and their offspring) consume in benefits. This is very well documented (in Europe as well as in the US) and conceded even by (intellectually honest) open-borders advocates, and it has been pointed out to you with links to reliable references many times. The closest you can come to justifying your propaganda is to average (as Julian Simon was wont to do) a few hyper-rich Google-founder-type immigrants in with the millions of low-IQ Mexican peasant illegal aliens. That's dishonest because we don't need open borders to admit math geniuses-- we do that already.

4. The "guest worker" approach doesn't work: (1) even immigrants "ineligible for benefits" collect them. They have children and claim welfare payments and schooling for them. They get sick or injured and go to the E.R.. They file for EITC. (2) Poor immigrants excite the sympathy of nice people, the duplicity of leftist politicians, and the cupidity of businessmen. Every grocer in a neighborhood of poor immigrants funds politicians who work to extend benefits to immigrants because the grocer wants his customers to spend more money and he doesn't mind if that money is taxed away from citizens somewhere else. Every employer of poor immigrants is a big advocate for government subsidies to them because those reduce the wages the employer must pay to maintain his workforce-- it's a matter of socializing costs and privatizing benefits. In our society, the only way to avoid subsidizing poor immigrants is to exclude them from the country.

(Nobody is "forcing" anyone to go and live in Haiti. Your prospective immigrants already live in Haiti. They were born in Haiti. Haiti may be a dump but the Haitians made it that way. Americans have no duty to import Haitians to make America a dump like Haiti. Americans who feel sorry for Haitians can send them money. Hope springs eternal, but experience is the best teacher. More than a century of American experience with Haitians in and out of Haiti suggests that no amount of subsidy improves Haiti because the Hatians themselves squander any resources given to them, and bringing Haitians to the US simply adds mouths to the welfare rolls (and inmates to the jails). The only way to "fix" Haiti-- an approach I oppose completely-- would be conquest and imperial administration. I do not advocate doing that.)

Generally speaking. Oil sheikdoms and so-forth are noise.

*Eventually a disproportionate number of the children of low-quality immigrants become criminals and impose additional stiff costs on citizens.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#13
Immigration has nothing whatsoever to do with relieving world poverty and could never fulfill such a goal.

The primary effect, and perhaps purpose of immigration (excluding asylum), is to keep labor costs down. One could even convincingly claim that wages, in general, are controlled by immigration and certainly not the "free market".

A useful side effect is that it maintains a healthier demographic profile.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#14

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

Bryan Caplan's essay (http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-...) doesn't mention immigrant crime. Or, if you like, the extra crimes that will be committed by those whom Caplan is happy to penalize: the poor folks living next to you who pay higher taxes, are ineligible for benefits, don't have the right to vote, etc. What would be the Caplanian response here?

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#15
To see their point, imagine an American in rural Mississippi being told she cannot move to New York City to seek a better career.

Tangentially, this is exactly the situation in China today. The central government restricts movement, particularly between rural and urban areas. Many rural poor want to move to cities, but it is not legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registr...

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#16
post #12

This comment over at Bryan Caplan's blog pretty much sums it up nicely: ( http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/open_borders_in.... ) 1. Poverty is endogenous to population, not exogenous. Admitting a flood of poor immigrants to your country makes your country poor. All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something…

> Americans have no duty to import Haitians to make America a dump like Haiti. Americans who feel sorry for Haitians can send them money.

I sincerely fail to understand why some Americans always assume everyone wants to emigrate to the United States. It is a fairly probable assumption, but I often see it being the default one whenever I discuss the topic with some people from the US. Most people from the UK/Australia/NZ at least often ask "immigration to which country?".

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#17
Yes, but, (importantly) only if the immigration isn't so rapid that it destroys the cultural and social capital that makes the wealthier countries desirable targets of immigration in the first place.

Caplan has very insightful remarks about the benefits of immigration and the inconsistency of current policy on it. But he is unhelpfully silent on the question of the upper bound on ideal peaceful immigration, and yes, there certainly is one. Taking his ideas literally, we should be totally okay with Chinese army regulars "peacefully" immigrating, then using their free trade rights to import their weaponry. Sure, enacting their "takeover America" plan would be worthy of opposing (and violating free trade/movement ideals), but by then it's too late.

(Before you flame me: no I'm not saying that this would be the result of relaxing immigration policy; please read it carefully and flame me for the right reason.)

There has to be some principle that tells you when you are allowing in too many immigrants, which would stop you before you reach that point, and Caplan shows far too little interest in articulating it.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#18
I do think increasing migration from poor to rich areas is a good idea, although it should probably be scaled up slowly to make sure that there is no unexpected effects that makes the wealth of rich areas suddenly collapse.

I have a different cause though, which I also feel receives too little love: increasing migration between rich areas.

Currently citizens of EU states have the right to move freely inside the EU, subject to them getting a job or having enough independent means to not need state welfare. This is seems like an excellent idea, and surely it could scale up to a larger area than just the EU. For example, how about the EU, the US, Japan, and the rich areas of China [1]. For software developers, being able to conveniently move to the Bay Area would be really welcome.

[1] E.g. Beijing and Shanghai. These already have strict immigration restrictions, so including them in the common area would not expose industrial regions to immigration from agricultural regions.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#19

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

I've never seen a good idea come out of George Mason's econ department, and Caplan is no exception. They push the kind of head in the clouds politically oblivious oblivious economics that became passe outside hack thinktanks years ago.
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