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How many 10K hours do you have left?

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11–20 of 37 posts

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#11
This is a cool brain hack in that it uses math to convince you that you're not too old to become a master at something.

One issue I have with the 10,000 hour rule in general is this: there are approximately 2,088 hours in a work-year not counting overtime. To achieve mastery in your profession would then take less than 5 years. Most professions don't consider someone an expert 5 years into their careers. So does that mean a) you're not really improving that much in those 5 years b) there are more conditions to the 10,000 hour rule c) the 10,000 hour rule is flawed or d) the evaluation of one's expertise is flawed?

Another issue I have with the 10,000 hour rule is the idea of competence and sufficient experience. At what level of experience (in this case, hours) are you competent enough to achieve your goal? If programming, at what level can you create something that solves a given problem. If business, at what level can you successfully run a startup, etc.

So if the target changes to "enough experience to achieve a specific goal" then I'd argue one has much more time available to him/her than what this math suggests.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#12
post #9

Sadly, the problem is that the older you does not get the same out of 10k hours of deliberate practice than the younger you. Let's take chess: 10k hours of deliberate practice in your teen years will make you a master level player (and possibly near GM caliber if you think Polgar experiment was not a fluke). There are no known instances of someone starting to play chess after age of 30 and getting near GM. Conversely…

I'll agree with the idea that it's harder for the older you to master something than it is for the younger you, but I don't think it has to do with physiological reasons. I think it has to do with things like time, commitments, obligations, and fears.

When you're young, you have more time, less commitments and obligations (family, job, etc.), and generally less fears (if I screw this up, it's fine because I'm 17). As you grow older, these things get added on and it becomes difficult to motivate yourself to actually spend the 10k hours.

If you're talking about something like skateboarding, I think you're right that younger people will learn it better and faster than old people, because it's inherently physical. If you're talking about a mental task, I think it's a matter of whether or not you will sit down and do the work.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#13
post #9

Sadly, the problem is that the older you does not get the same out of 10k hours of deliberate practice than the younger you. Let's take chess: 10k hours of deliberate practice in your teen years will make you a master level player (and possibly near GM caliber if you think Polgar experiment was not a fluke). There are no known instances of someone starting to play chess after age of 30 and getting near GM. Conversely…

Anecdotal data, admittedly not perfectly analogous.

I got serious about playing the game of go relatively late in life for a go player--I was 23 years old at the time. In 2 years of hard study (1~2h/day, and a bit more on weekends) I rose from essentially a complete beginner to dan level play. Since then, life has pulled me away from playing go as actively, but the work I do at this point does let me maintain my level of play.

I think it's fair to say that you get MORE out of your effort at a younger age, but at the same time, I think that if you're serious about learning and honest about the way you learn, you can absolutely get a LOT out of those hours--and that ultimately, you can get the same utility as you would have, by tailoring your studies to the way you learn more effectively.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#14

This is a cool brain hack in that it uses math to convince you that you're not too old to become a master at something. One issue I have with the 10,000 hour rule in general is this: there are approximately 2,088 hours in a work-year not counting overtime. To achieve mastery in your profession would then take less than 5 years. Most professions don't consider someone an expert 5 years into their careers. So does that…

The 10k hour rule isn't about experience, but about deliberate practice. Two very different things.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#15
post #8
post #7

How could anyone actually sustain such a rate of learning? Two hours every weekday, plus an additional sixteen hours every weekend for 48 weeks every year? Life creeps up, and seeps into the cracks so tenuously occupied by free time. Mastering but a single skill is impressive.

2 hours a day is not something completely unachievable. Hell, I spent that time everyday watching some movie or just relaxing.

Yes but if you work full time and you have a family this 2 hours per day become rare. It's also important to notice that your body require to have some relaxing time which is also needed to be in consideration. Yes you may remove all "wasted time" of your day, but at the end, your brain will need rest. Spending your whole life optimizing this time will just get you more chance to get a burnout. 18 hours per week on free time is huge and hard to get once you have children, friends, and social activities.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#16

This is a cool brain hack in that it uses math to convince you that you're not too old to become a master at something. One issue I have with the 10,000 hour rule in general is this: there are approximately 2,088 hours in a work-year not counting overtime. To achieve mastery in your profession would then take less than 5 years. Most professions don't consider someone an expert 5 years into their careers. So does that…

I work roughly 2000 hours a year in my field, but that includes meetings, and HR stuff, and answering client questions, creating proposals etc.. I would bet I spend right around 400-800 hours a year growing in my field. That would put mastery more like 10-25 years away.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#17

This is a cool brain hack in that it uses math to convince you that you're not too old to become a master at something. One issue I have with the 10,000 hour rule in general is this: there are approximately 2,088 hours in a work-year not counting overtime. To achieve mastery in your profession would then take less than 5 years. Most professions don't consider someone an expert 5 years into their careers. So does that…

Agreed.

I think this is where you get into mastery vs. experience. 10k hours of a task does not make you an expert unless you've spent those 10k hours deliberately attempting to gain expertise.

This is also where you get into good practice vs. bad practice. i.e., the average golf enthusiast "practices" by going to the driving range, because it's easy and fun and he's probably already decent at using a driver. Someone who wants to become a golf professional practices by hitting a hundred balls out of a sand trap or driving into the wind or any number of other difficult techniques they're not good at yet.

It's not so much the passage of time (10k hours) that matters, as it is how you spend those hours.

To your second point, "mastery" is sort of a vague term. I like your idea of "enough to achieve a certain goal". That's probably better from a mental health perspective too (experts in many fields are pretty crazy because they've devoted themselves exclusively to this one narrow area for years and years).

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#18
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 hours a day is not something completely unachievable. Hell, I spent that time everyday watching some movie or just relaxing.

Yes but if you work full time and you have a family this 2 hours per day become rare. It's also important to notice that your body require to have some relaxing time which is also needed to be in consideration. Yes you may remove all "wasted time" of your day, but at the end, your brain will need rest. Spending your whole life optimizing this time will just get you more chance to get a burnout. 18 hours per week on f…

Of course. I don't have a family and live alone. If you can't get those 2 hours because of other things, well, it won't work.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#19

This is a cool brain hack in that it uses math to convince you that you're not too old to become a master at something. One issue I have with the 10,000 hour rule in general is this: there are approximately 2,088 hours in a work-year not counting overtime. To achieve mastery in your profession would then take less than 5 years. Most professions don't consider someone an expert 5 years into their careers. So does that…

Also, most people aren't doing only one thing while they're at work.

Re: How many 10K hours do you have left?

#20
post #9

Sadly, the problem is that the older you does not get the same out of 10k hours of deliberate practice than the younger you. Let's take chess: 10k hours of deliberate practice in your teen years will make you a master level player (and possibly near GM caliber if you think Polgar experiment was not a fluke). There are no known instances of someone starting to play chess after age of 30 and getting near GM. Conversely…

True, but at least you will be the chess boss at the retirement home.
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