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Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

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Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#11

Post by uuilly »

rms wrote: post #9
rrival wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are magnificent. To suggest that anyone -not- read them (for the sake of brevity, no less) is to suggest a reader not experience great, life-changing literature. Her objectivist philosophy may be a bit overt in the latter, but never for a second could I sleep well knowing I'd proposed that others -skip- these books.

We should be explicitly working towards the advancement of human civilization instead of working for rational self-interest.

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress." -Ayn Rand

Her books make the case that individuals working in their own self interest are the best thing for "human civilization." Disagree if you will, but you'll have a tough time coming up with a definition of "advancement of human civilization" that everyone can agree on. In the end you fight for your own vision of what the world should be and ignore the rest.

Might is right. Ignore that at your own peril. Especially if you're in a startup.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#12

Post by rms »

uuilly wrote: post #11
rms wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be explicitly working towards the advancement of human civilization instead of working for rational self-interest.

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress." -Ayn Rand Her books make the case that individuals working in their own self interest are the best thing for "human civilization." Disagree if you will, but you'll have a tough time coming up with a definition of "advancement of human civilization" that everyone can agree on. In the end you fight for your own vision of what the world should be and ignore the rest. Mi…

>you'll have a tough time coming up with a definition of "advancement of human civilization" that everyone can agree on

No, I think it's easy, we've got a great way to measure progress. We call it "power." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#13

Post by paul »

rrival wrote: post #7
SwellJoe wrote: post #6

All the Ayn Rand you'll ever need is in Anthem. Much shorter than Atlas Shrugged, and better literature to boot. I'm a long-time fan, after finding one of her books at a flea market when I was a kid (bought it coincidentally at the same time as Walden Two, a socialist manifesto by B.F. Skinner...one was delightfully rational and rang true while the other's greatest feat of intellectual brilliance was the use of glass…

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are magnificent. To suggest that anyone -not- read them (for the sake of brevity, no less) is to suggest a reader not experience great, life-changing literature. Her objectivist philosophy may be a bit overt in the latter, but never for a second could I sleep well knowing I'd proposed that others -skip- these books.

"Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of shit, I am never reading again." -- police officer Barbrady, South Park (1998)

I made it about 1/3 of the way into The Fountainhead but got bored and lost interest. Self-interest is ok, but I'm not going to make it my religion.

The architect who wouldn't design what people like (because it wasn't rational, as I recall) seemed like a really annoying person to deal with. And I certainly wouldn't want to invest in his startup :)

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#14

Post by uuilly »

rms wrote: post #12
uuilly wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress." -Ayn Rand Her books make the case that individuals working in their own self interest are the best thing for "human civilization." Disagree if you will, but you'll have a tough time coming up with a definition of "advancement of human civilization" that everyone can agree on. In the end you fight for your own vision of what the world should be and ignore the rest. Mi…

>you'll have a tough time coming up with a definition of "advancement of human civilization" that everyone can agree on No, I think it's easy, we've got a great way to measure progress. We call it "power." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

Where does Brittany Spears fit in the Kardashev Scale? There a millions of people that think she is more important than energy consumption. Should we put them all in the gas chamber?

Even if we let them live, Kardashev, brilliant though he may be, has hardly come up w/ a universal set of values that everyone is, should, or will eventually strive for.

The best you can do is to absorb his ideals, spread his word and create technology that furthers his goals. And in doing that you become an Ayn Rand follower.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#15

Post by uuilly »

paul wrote: post #13
rrival wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are magnificent. To suggest that anyone -not- read them (for the sake of brevity, no less) is to suggest a reader not experience great, life-changing literature. Her objectivist philosophy may be a bit overt in the latter, but never for a second could I sleep well knowing I'd proposed that others -skip- these books.

"Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of shit, I am never reading again." -- police officer Barbrady, South Park (1998) I made it about 1/3 of the way into The Fountainhead but got bored and lost interest. Self-interest is ok, but I'm not going to make i…

Clever, I just voted you up, but consider the Apple vs. MS saga. One may have been a better investment, but which one is better?

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#16

Post by paul »

uuilly wrote: post #15
paul wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of shit, I am never reading again." -- police officer Barbrady, South Park (1998) I made it about 1/3 of the way into The Fountainhead but got bored and lost interest. Self-interest is ok, but I'm not going to make i…

Clever, I just voted you up, but consider the Apple vs. MS saga. One may have been a better investment, but which one is better?

The funny thing is that the answer to both question is unclear.

For investment, it definitely depends on when you invested: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=MSFT&l=on&z... http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=my&s=MSFT&l=on&z...

The same goes for the early years btw -- apple had it's IPO much sooner than ms.

As for which product or company is better, that depends on what you're looking for. I don't believe that there is a single best solution. It's obvious that they both make products that meet a lot of people's needs.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#17

Post by jsmcgd »

rms wrote: post #9
rrival wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are magnificent. To suggest that anyone -not- read them (for the sake of brevity, no less) is to suggest a reader not experience great, life-changing literature. Her objectivist philosophy may be a bit overt in the latter, but never for a second could I sleep well knowing I'd proposed that others -skip- these books.

We should be explicitly working towards the advancement of human civilization instead of working for rational self-interest.

I don't see a conflict of interest.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#18

Post by brianmckenzie »

uuilly wrote: post #8
brianmckenzie wrote: post #2

Someone whose philosophy can be summed up in a Depeche Mode song is probably not the brightest light in the history of western civilization.

The Fountainhead was written in 1943. Depeche Mode saw it's first success in 1981. If even one of the best economic minds in 2045 cite Depeche Mode as their influence then you have a point. 2007 - 1943 = 64 1981 + 64 = 2045

You're taking what I said waaay too literally.

But if we're gonna go there (and this is all in jest), I see it like this: in 1981 Depeche Mode were a bunch of drama-whoring junkies with Casio keyboards, yet they managed to express the same basic ideas in far fewer words, plus a catchy euro-pop beat.

I appreciate some aspects of Ayn Rand's thought, but find her books a chore to read.

Alan Greenspan considers Ayn Rand a major influence? It's an interesting factoid, but falls far short of implying causality. I could make another Depeche Mode reference here, but it would be extremely tasteless.

When Greenspan and his ilk characterize people as 'parasites', I parse that as 'anyone who gets between me and the forests of money to which I am entitled'. I might see where he's coming from, but his rhetoric is needlessly violent.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#19

Post by rms »

jsmcgd wrote: post #17
rms wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be explicitly working towards the advancement of human civilization instead of working for rational self-interest.

I don't see a conflict of interest.

OK, there isn't one. I lost here, I forgot that Objectivism ends up encompassing any rational belief so it's hard to argue against it.

Re: Ayn Rand's Literature of Capitalism

#20

Post by rrival »

paul wrote: post #13
rrival wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are magnificent. To suggest that anyone -not- read them (for the sake of brevity, no less) is to suggest a reader not experience great, life-changing literature. Her objectivist philosophy may be a bit overt in the latter, but never for a second could I sleep well knowing I'd proposed that others -skip- these books.

"Yes, at first I was happy to be learning how to read. It seemed exciting and magical, but then I read this: Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. I read every last word of this garbage, and because of this piece of shit, I am never reading again." -- police officer Barbrady, South Park (1998) I made it about 1/3 of the way into The Fountainhead but got bored and lost interest. Self-interest is ok, but I'm not going to make i…

Perhaps if you'd realized that The Fountainhead is based on the life of Frank Lloyd Wright or that by tirelessly adhering to existing architectural principles you're continuing to develop derivative crap, you might see what he did as a bit more revolutionary and appreciate what her message was a bit more. I couldn't put it down, but then, I don't really watch South Park.
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