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Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

ruthburr.com

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Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#11

Post by danso »

I imagine this is going to be controversial:

> Listen, guys. You have to stop trying to pick up women at conferences. You just have to stop doing it. Again, context matters: you’re not just hanging out at a bar drinking with your buddies, chatting up the attractive woman sitting next to you. You’re at an industry function, talking to women who are your industry peers. They’re simply not there to be hit on – even in ways that might not be creepy in another setting

I think the problem here is that hitting on someone is sexual, not sexist. However, in an environment where the gender balance is so skewed, what is sexual almost unavoidably leads to a sexist atmosphere.

To put it another way, the problems of being hit on apply to gay men. It is not inextricably linked to male-over-female dynamic.

So I agree with the overall intent of the OP here. I think many reasonable guys would be defensive about acting like normal sexual creatures...however, it is important to not vilify sex, but to point out how it can lead to unintended consequences in this kind of environment.

So rather than saying that the "pickup game" is sexist, I would just say that it is inappropriate at an event where the participants are ostensibly there for professional reasons, no matter if you're male, female, gay or straight

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#12

Post by reso »

danso wrote: post #11

I imagine this is going to be controversial: > Listen, guys. You have to stop trying to pick up women at conferences. You just have to stop doing it. Again, context matters: you’re not just hanging out at a bar drinking with your buddies, chatting up the attractive woman sitting next to you. You’re at an industry function, talking to women who are your industry peers. They’re simply not there to be hit on – even in w…

I think you've made an important distinction here. An action is sexist if it is a material discrimination against a person because of their gender. However, there are emergent patterns in environments with large gender-asymmetries which cause one gender to have a very different experience than the other.

One man making an advance on a woman might be okay, but several making the same advance on the same day is going to become very uncomfortable. Do we call this sexist? No individual is making any action to cause discrimination, there are simply environmental factors that create an imbalance.

I think a lot of the issues surrounding women in tech are emergent from this asymmetry, and not strictly "sexism" as I have defined it above.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#13

Post by testbro »

drewcoo wrote: post #7
testbro wrote: post #3

As a normal male I find it perplexing how anyone could find the majority of these things appropriate. I can't speak for women, but it seems a little extreme to assert that women should be shielded from innuendo in case it reduces the males into a pack of sexually charged morons.

I'm a guy. That all offends me, too. The difference is that as a male I'm not so likely to have trolls from all over the web threaten me (with violence, no less) for saying it's inappropriate. There's the "a little extreme" for you and that's why everyone might seem like they're overreacting. They're not.

Certainly - the comments on the original article are eye-opening to say the least. Having never been to a tech conference I haven't experienced the type of atmosphere.

To restate my comment with that in mind; I don't think banning innuendo will solve any problems. Perhaps it might improve the atmosphere, but it won't fix the underlying attitude problems placed in the spotlight for the last week.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#14

Post by match »

dialmaster wrote: post #4

At most of these conferences many of the attendees DO go out to the local bars after the conference hours are over for the day. I assume at that point "normal" bar behaviour is OK?

I would have to say in the majority of cases the answer is still no. Let's face it, when a group of people head out to the bars after conference hours there is plenty of networking going on. People form business relationships and friendships that continue after the conference. A female shouldn't have to choose to tolerate unwanted sexual advances simply to participate in these bonding experiences.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#15

Post by ruthburr »

reso wrote: post #12
danso wrote: post #11

I imagine this is going to be controversial: > Listen, guys. You have to stop trying to pick up women at conferences. You just have to stop doing it. Again, context matters: you’re not just hanging out at a bar drinking with your buddies, chatting up the attractive woman sitting next to you. You’re at an industry function, talking to women who are your industry peers. They’re simply not there to be hit on – even in w…

I think you've made an important distinction here. An action is sexist if it is a material discrimination against a person because of their gender. However, there are emergent patterns in environments with large gender-asymmetries which cause one gender to have a very different experience than the other. One man making an advance on a woman might be okay, but several making the same advance on the same day is going t…

Hi guys, a lot of people have made the point that the behaviors that I'm calling out are not so much "sexist" as they are inappropriate, sexual and in general skewed toward women. I agree, "sexist" may not capture all of the shades of meaning I address in the post. Inappropriate captures it better. I'll jump in and update the post to say as much later today. Really appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#16

Post by ruthburr »

tonyarkles wrote: post #8
fbdf87cd wrote: post #5

> Rule of thumb: if I think we’re on hugging terms, I’ll go in for the hug. Otherwise please don’t touch me. Looks like you're sexist too! You should check your double standards at the door if you want to be taken seriously.

> You should check your double standards at the door if you want to be taken seriously. You say that as though male-male, female-female, male-female, and female-male interactions are all identical; they're not. I really don't think that she's saying she's going to indiscriminately grope people based on "whether or not she feels they're on hugging terms". As far as a double-standard goes, it's a fact of (Western) life…

Thanks tonyarkles, and to clarify: I'm not saying that it's OK for me to indiscriminately go around hugging people, either. I'm saying that in general the only people I hug are people that I know well enough to know that a hug will be OK from both sides.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#17

Post by ruthburr »

testbro wrote: post #13
drewcoo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a guy. That all offends me, too. The difference is that as a male I'm not so likely to have trolls from all over the web threaten me (with violence, no less) for saying it's inappropriate. There's the "a little extreme" for you and that's why everyone might seem like they're overreacting. They're not.

Certainly - the comments on the original article are eye-opening to say the least. Having never been to a tech conference I haven't experienced the type of atmosphere. To restate my comment with that in mind; I don't think banning innuendo will solve any problems. Perhaps it might improve the atmosphere, but it won't fix the underlying attitude problems placed in the spotlight for the last week.

Innuendo is a really really hard one, because a lot of women appreciate a dirty joke as much as men do. I wish the solution could be "let's go ahead and all be grown-ups about it" but that doesn't seem to be working. So instead I'll say "let's think about the things we say and whether or not we're contributing to a sexually-charged environment at work events." Again, context matters: go ahead and make innuendoes among your pals in your own time, Lord knows I will.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#18

Post by ruthburr »

dhugiaskmak wrote: post #9

I agree with everything she wrote. But please stop with the "Dude" this and "Dude" that.

The reason I use "Dude" is an abbreviation for "Type of Dude to Whom This Post is Addressed," as I say in the beginning of the piece - i.e. assuming you're already one of the good guys.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#19

Post by ruthburr »

alanpca wrote: post #10

> not that that stops some men from gaily trampling over that line Women don't step over the line? This is sexism.

That's true, women do, but not having been on the receiving end it's harder for me to speak on that, and it's not what the post is about. I think that we can discuss the behaviors of one group of people without the implied assumption that they're the only ones who behave in that way or that every other group is inherently blameless.

Re: Things You Think Aren’t Sexist, But Really Are

#20

Post by ruthburr »

match wrote: post #14
dialmaster wrote: post #4

At most of these conferences many of the attendees DO go out to the local bars after the conference hours are over for the day. I assume at that point "normal" bar behaviour is OK?

I would have to say in the majority of cases the answer is still no. Let's face it, when a group of people head out to the bars after conference hours there is plenty of networking going on. People form business relationships and friendships that continue after the conference. A female shouldn't have to choose to tolerate unwanted sexual advances simply to participate in these bonding experiences.

Thanks match, and I agree. You're still not just out at a bar with buddies, you're there with people you've met at a professional event and the professional context should still apply. I think match says it well:

>when a group of people head out to the bars after conference hours there is plenty of networking going on. People form business relationships and friendships that continue after the conference. A female shouldn't have to choose to tolerate unwanted sexual advances simply to participate in these bonding experiences.

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