Shut Up and Listen • Hacker News Board

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#11

Post by Sambdala » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

hurfdurferson wrote: post #6

Sambdala wrote: post #2

Even giving all benefit of the doubt, what's the solution then? If you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control, what else are you obligated to do?

You are not obligated to do anything. If, however, you believe groups that use 100% of the available sapients will always outcompete groups that use 50% of them you will probably, of your own conscience, gravitate towards those groups that do not tacitly exclude those 50% and avoid those that do. When one side tacitly approves of rape threats and murder threats for people who speak out they make it pretty darn easy f…

"you don't personally treat anyone differently based on attributes outside their control"

If you subscribe to the quoted as well as what you said and try to only surround yourself with people that act in a similar manner, then isn't that going to happen automatically?

"When one side tacitly approves of rape threats and murder threats for people who speak out they make it pretty darn easy for me to choose."

I don't think there's two black & white sides here that neatly contain everyone, and I don't think by shunning those who call for violence you have to implicitly endorse whatever the target of that call to violence is advocating.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#12

Post by unalone » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:32 PM UTC

mikecane wrote: post #10

mikecane wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are all privileged in different ways and in different circumstances. I think this idea is what tends to get swept under the rug when pointing to some overarching Privilege.

Sure, you can downvote me but any married man will tell you that it's always best to have the wife ask for something from someone else because women are perceived as being "nicer" and usually get such favors. When men ask, it's either intimidating to a woman or invokes a power trip with another man.

People who talk a lot about "patriarchy" will point out that a society in which men are made out to be strong and aggressive and dominant doesn't just hurt women. It hurts all the men who would rather be reasonable and mild-mannered and effeminate too.

That's not evidence against there being a systemic imbalance. It's further proof of it.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#13

Post by jiggy2011 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ.

I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills.

I find it interesting that it is generally considered correct and fair that somebody has better income and quality of life because of high intelligence when this is a factor as much outside your control as race or gender.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#14

Post by rooshdi » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

cantastoria wrote: post #8

Great, another guilt ridden diatribe against John Scalzi from John Scalzi. I've never read someone who is more obsessed about being a "privileged white male" than he is. I wish he would take his own advice or at least the first part of it. I'm not going bother arguing with him because really what's the point, this self-flagellation obviously gets him off and as usual it's all about him. Is "self-hating narcissist" a…

No, but introspective human being might be.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#15

Post by cousin_it » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

Is "shut up and listen" a more winning group strategy than "keep telling others about our grievances"?

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#16

Post by mistercow » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

cantastoria wrote: post #8

Great, another guilt ridden diatribe against John Scalzi from John Scalzi. I've never read someone who is more obsessed about being a "privileged white male" than he is. I wish he would take his own advice or at least the first part of it. I'm not going bother arguing with him because really what's the point, this self-flagellation obviously gets him off and as usual it's all about him. Is "self-hating narcissist" a…

If you think that recognizing one's own privilege is about self-flagellation, you really, really don't understand the concept.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#17

Post by unalone » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #13

I think that the biggest privilege one can have, at least when it comes to matters of career and finance is being born to middle-class or better parents and having an above average IQ. I would imagine a lesbian black woman with an Ivy league education has much greater odds of success than a straight white guy from the trailer park/slum who struggles with reading/writing skills. I find it interesting that it is genera…

> I find it interesting that it is generally considered correct and fair that somebody has better income and quality of life because of high intelligence when this is a factor as much outside your control as race or gender.

I don't think it is generally considered correct and fair, which is why so many people are critical of libertarians and Objectivism. Class struggle is a major issue, and post-industrial capitalism is itself often criticized for creating these inherent imbalances.

None of that, however, has to do with this particular issue, which is absolutely worth discussing. If you submit a story about the unfairness of upper- versus lower-class opportunities, I'll certainly upvote it.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#18

Post by camelite » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #4

That's a good old post by Scalzi, but the people who most need to pay attention to it are the ones least likely to pay attention to it. EDIT: He also has a current post: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/03/21/two-simple-observation...

They're not his intended audience IMHO - people like you (who already approve of his politics) are.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#19

Post by scotch_drinker » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

cantastoria wrote: post #8

Great, another guilt ridden diatribe against John Scalzi from John Scalzi. I've never read someone who is more obsessed about being a "privileged white male" than he is. I wish he would take his own advice or at least the first part of it. I'm not going bother arguing with him because really what's the point, this self-flagellation obviously gets him off and as usual it's all about him. Is "self-hating narcissist" a…

Self-flagellation? I went back to make sure I didn't miss anything but it looks like a post about understanding your privilege and how your success relates to it. It's a post about understanding the depth of experience that other people live with, experiences he has not had because of that privilege.

Re: Shut Up and Listen

#20

Post by unalone » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

camelite wrote: post #18

jellicle wrote: post #4

That's a good old post by Scalzi, but the people who most need to pay attention to it are the ones least likely to pay attention to it. EDIT: He also has a current post: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2013/03/21/two-simple-observation...

They're not his intended audience IMHO - people like you (who already approve of his politics) are.

John Scalzi is an award-winning author with a considerable fanbase. Last time I was in Times Square, his latest book was being projected on the largest screen there.

I humbly suggest that among his immense readership are people who either disapprove of his politics, or who are not quite as aware of their privilege as he is and would benefit from having a smart, eloquent person point it out publicly.