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The Apprentice Programmer

tobi.lutke.com

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Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#11

Post by jmduke »

jdotjdot wrote: post #6
templaedhel wrote: post #5

I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. You have to keep in mind the hordes of people who have followeded a similar path only to archive not enough to blog about. Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I agree with you in that I don't know we have the data to argue that apprenticeships are better, but I don't think we have data to argue that they're worse either, and I can't see how having it as an option is bad at a…

> Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't?

I think the whole point is that, statistically speaking, many many more people go through the system and succeed than otherwise. That's why it's the system.

(I'm not saying that's still true.)

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#12

Post by oliverhunt »

shanelja wrote: post #8

I was an apprentice, fairly recently actually, only last year. I loved it - the crappy pay, the meaningless jobs and the terrible teaching aside - I found that I was in my element. Half my life I've been fascinated with computers, for a quarter of it, I've been actively building programs to populate them, replacing the typical childhood experience with code and logic. When I got my first job in programming I had been…

What country do you live in and what company did you do your apprenticeship with?

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#13

Post by terhechte »

jmduke wrote: post #9

This is well written, but I feel as though I'm missing something. The best way to get better at being a career programmer is to be a career programmer. This is understandable! And the author's initiative at 16 years of age to identify his passions and stick with them at the exclusion of higher education is commendable. But I've learned a whole, whole lot in college -- and yes, I completely agree with the author that…

I did both, I first did an apprenticeship, and then some time after that went to college. I think that's a great way to do it, because I first learned the pragmatic way, and then could expand it with theory. In addition to that (I think), I had matured enough when college started, to better decide what to do, which courses to choose.

I wholeheartedly agree on all the other things you list about college; doing an apprenticeship doesn't give you any of that. I'm confident that going to college was one of the best decisions of my life, maybe the best decision, given all the contacts / friends I made, the things I exprienced, the new topics I learned about, the discussions I had, the parties I had, etc.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#14

Post by ihsw »

templaedhel wrote: post #5

I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. You have to keep in mind the hordes of people who have followeded a similar path only to archive not enough to blog about. Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

There is a very long sliding scale of success attributed formalized education (either through academic or vocational studies) or otherwise garnered from personal experience.

There is value in both, and the confirmation bias is apparent but it may not have been the intention of the author.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#15

Post by drcube »

jmduke wrote: post #11
jdotjdot wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I agree with you in that I don't know we have the data to argue that apprenticeships are better, but I don't think we have data to argue that they're worse either, and I can't see how having it as an option is bad at a…

> Yes, but you could say the same thing about people who went to traditional schools. How many people went through that system and succeeded--and then how many people went through that system and didn't? I think the whole point is that, statistically speaking, many many more people go through the system and succeed than otherwise. That's why it's the system. (I'm not saying that's still true.)

Yeah, but correlation isn't causation. Maybe unsuccessful people on average will be unsuccessful in school and the successful people on average will be successful in school. While school itself has no actual impact on success.

I'm not saying I believe that, but I haven't seen it ruled out yet.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#16

Post by jacquesm »

templaedhel wrote: post #5

I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. You have to keep in mind the hordes of people who have followeded a similar path only to archive not enough to blog about. Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

I think a key ingredient is that you have to love to learn, that you would do it regardless of circumstance and that learning itself is your passion.

If that's the case you can safely drop out of education, but if the motivations are to some extent external then better stay put.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#18

Post by blt »

I wish I could have a mentor like Juergen in the article. Ever since I started writing code, nobody has had enough time or dedication to go over my work line-by-line like that. I learn those lessons by trial and error when my code breaks. And they aren't lessons I could have learned in college. I've got a long way to go, but one day if I'm actually a good programmer I'll try hard to be a mentor like that to the new guys.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#19

Post by hkarthik »

I actually met with some programmers from Shopify at a conference this week. They spoke of Tobi's leadership very well and I could see he's worked hard to cultivate a certain culture at Shopify. Reading this essay really validates a lot of what his programmers said about him.

Re: The Apprentice Programmer

#20

Post by doktrin »

templaedhel wrote: post #5

I feel like confirmation bias is in play when you read about successful people who have dropped out of school, succeed, and then blogged about it. You have to keep in mind the hordes of people who have followeded a similar path only to archive not enough to blog about. Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

That's missing the major point of the piece, IMHO. The OP isn't describing "self education", and (coming from a US perspective) is not even a typical drop out.

What's being described here is a vocational pattern of learning, where on-the-job experience is backed up with classroom instruction. That's not exactly what "drop out" or "self educated" imply in the US.

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