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Flow Charts

neil.fraser.name

11–20 of 31 posts

Re: Flow Charts

#11
post #9

Amusing that this takes place in Saigon. My mom is from there and her knowledge of COBOL is why she still has a programming job today

You are the first adult guy I heard of who has a mother who is a programmer. Just realized that.

I can't talk with my parents about my daily work, having a mom like that must be awesome.

Re: Flow Charts

#12
I recently read Weinberg's Psychology of Computer Programming, which was written at about the time that time-sharing operating systems (like Unix) began to push out batch computing systems. This is exactly the sort of thing he was concerned about.

When you have a long turnaround time for feedback, you get a strong incentive to "desk check" before you send off your work.

Re: Flow Charts

#13
post #11
post #9

Amusing that this takes place in Saigon. My mom is from there and her knowledge of COBOL is why she still has a programming job today

You are the first adult guy I heard of who has a mother who is a programmer. Just realized that. I can't talk with my parents about my daily work, having a mom like that must be awesome.

Well, no,, she programs in COBOL...so we have nothing to talk about :). I do remember when I was having a hard time in upper level Calculus thinking that my mom had to go through the same classes to get a college degree here, except with much less English ability, so the least I could do was stick it through. But we've never talked much about programming, I think for my parents, it was just a way to get a job after moving here.

Re: Flow Charts

#14
I wouldn't say I use them often (and when I do, it's usually some form of business process modeling rather than software control flow) but I don't think it's quite fair to assert that flowcharts became obsolete with punch-cards.

At they very least they are a useful "language" to describe program-like logic to non-programmers. That includes beginner programmers, as others have noted, but also includes interested non-technical parties. In my experience it is the best way to explain/document convoluted decision trees to non-programmers.

More broadly, I hear a lot of complaints about UML and other diagrammatic ways to design or describe programs. I don't really get it. I mean, I understand why one might think that the formal UML language is complicated and convoluted (because it is that) and why one might think it fails to live up to the promise of a visual way to specify/write software (because it does fail to do that), but surely I'm not the only one who just drops most of the formalism and uses a pseudo-UML format to communicate (and sometimes even reason about) software design? How do you sketch programs without some UML-like notation? (I suspect UML was partially a formalization of existing ways to sketch programs to begin with.)

Re: Flow Charts

#15
post #11
post #9

Amusing that this takes place in Saigon. My mom is from there and her knowledge of COBOL is why she still has a programming job today

You are the first adult guy I heard of who has a mother who is a programmer. Just realized that. I can't talk with my parents about my daily work, having a mom like that must be awesome.

Note that Lisp, COBOL, Fortran and Algol were all invented more then 50 years ago (incidently, 3 of the 4 are still moderately common).

A programmer working in the 1970s or 1980s could easily have a child 20 to 30 years old now. I can't readily find the BLS Handbook of labor Statistics from the period online, but there must have been quite a few of them/us by the mid-1980s.

Re: Flow Charts

#16
post #11
post #9

Amusing that this takes place in Saigon. My mom is from there and her knowledge of COBOL is why she still has a programming job today

You are the first adult guy I heard of who has a mother who is a programmer. Just realized that. I can't talk with my parents about my daily work, having a mom like that must be awesome.

My mum's ex IBM, she worked in Cobol and Fortran and taught me to program. She doesn't know much modern stuff, so I can't really talk about my daily work with her, sadly. When I was at university, in 2006 there was an "IBM Mainframe Contest" - I was using the same OS she used to use! So we had some fun conversations about that :)

Re: Flow Charts

#17
Funny, the more my job involves explaining to developers what is needed rather than coding it myself, the more I tend to fall back on flowcharts and diagrams to describe the higher level business processes.

I'm all in favor of agile direct communication with the client, but one decent flowchart can save spending hours in meetings trying to get everyone to understand what the problem is we need to solve.

Although no longer needed to design every little detail of the code flow, it's still pretty much an essential skill to have in software development.

Re: Flow Charts

#18
post #11
post #9

Amusing that this takes place in Saigon. My mom is from there and her knowledge of COBOL is why she still has a programming job today

You are the first adult guy I heard of who has a mother who is a programmer. Just realized that. I can't talk with my parents about my daily work, having a mom like that must be awesome.

My father is a retired EE and was programming embedded machines in assembly language before I "caught the programming bug". When I was mostly doing embedded systems, we had plenty we could talk about. That hasn't changed now that he's retired since the basis of hardware logic and software logic is the same (Boolean Algebra identities). But I've done some interesting things in software as a result ... like using Karnaugh maps to minimize complex branching.

Incidentally, I'm pushing 50 and used punch cards in my computer math class in high school as well as for my lower-level computer science classes in college (Cmp Sci 201 was Fortran at Penn State back then). My son is a second semester senior in Media Effects (currently studying what affects app store engagement) and also has a minor in IST. Computing has been around long enough for three generations to "partake".

Re: Flow Charts

#19
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the first adult guy I heard of who has a mother who is a programmer. Just realized that. I can't talk with my parents about my daily work, having a mom like that must be awesome.

Note that Lisp, COBOL, Fortran and Algol were all invented more then 50 years ago (incidently, 3 of the 4 are still moderately common). A programmer working in the 1970s or 1980s could easily have a child 20 to 30 years old now. I can't readily find the BLS Handbook of labor Statistics from the period online, but there must have been quite a few of them/us by the mid-1980s.

incidently, 3 of the 4 are still moderately common

I assume you're talking about Algol as the one not in moderately common. But the lisps, cobol and fortran in use today generally isn't the same as 50 years ago (maaaybe legacy cobol/fortran stuff is?) - especially the lisps used today (mostly common lisp, scheme and new lisps like clojure) are very different from what they were 50 years ago to the degree that they are really entirely different languages. I'd go so far as to say that lisp is not moderately common anymore, but that languages called Scheme, Common Lisp, Clojure etc are. Saying that Lisp is still moderately common due to these languages is no different than saying that Algol is still moderately common - or rather, Algol dialects known as C, Ada, Java, C# and so on are.

Re: Flow Charts

#20
FTA "COBOL code was written on paper, sent to a punch operator, who would type the punch cards"

Nitpick. When I learned COBOL in 1990 we had terminals, typed the code like gentlemen.

What they taught us was 1) flowchart the process 2) write it out by hand on graph paper 3) type it up.

I still use flowcharts. Not all the time, and not well: that kind of thing works much better on fan-fold paper!

But it helps me keep the logic I had in mind as I bang out code.

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