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New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

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Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#11

Post by arbuge »

martinced wrote: post #3

"...an international group of researchers has secured $1.6 billion..." An international group of researchers has scammed $1.6 billion away. And that's with EU taxpayers money. Do you really think that anyone involved in deciding to allow that kind of spending has any idea as to where we're at nowadays regarding AI? Did any of them read "On Intelligence" (its author knowing more than a thing or two about AI)? I'm sure…

"On a positive sidenote $1.6 bn for the duration of this project is peanuts compared to the yearly $140 bn the UE is spending ; )"

On another positive sidenote, the $140B the EU is spending is peanuts compared to the ~$3-4T the US Govt. is spending.

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#12

Post by tgflynn »

I would feel less skeptical about the prospects for simulating the human brain if I had heard that someone had succeeded in simulating an infinitely simpler nervous system, say that of a spider, for instance, and obtained spider-like behavior from it.

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#13

Post by ComputerGuru »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter how complex the simulation is if there is simply not enough underlying data? As far as I understand, we simply do not understand neuron activity at a low level enough to make such a thing feasible.

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#14

Post by kanzure »

tgflynn wrote: post #12

I would feel less skeptical about the prospects for simulating the human brain if I had heard that someone had succeeded in simulating an infinitely simpler nervous system, say that of a spider, for instance, and obtained spider-like behavior from it.

Not a spider, but how about C. elegans?

http://openworm.org/

https://github.com/openworm

http://nemaload.davidad.org/

http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#15

Post by Retric »

tgflynn wrote: post #12

I would feel less skeptical about the prospects for simulating the human brain if I had heard that someone had succeeded in simulating an infinitely simpler nervous system, say that of a spider, for instance, and obtained spider-like behavior from it.

10 years ago people simulated a nematode, a type of worm, and got nematode like behavior from it.

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#16

Post by andreasvc »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #13

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter how complex the simulation is if there is simply not enough underlying data? As far as I understand, we simply do not understand neuron activity at a low level enough to make such a thing feasible.

And another sort of "data": humans take one or two decades to develop into sensible persons; how are you supposed to educate a computer simulation? To a large extend for humans it also holds that garbage in is garbage out. We don't need massive simulation, we need understanding of fundamentals.

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#18

Post by kanzure »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #13

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter how complex the simulation is if there is simply not enough underlying data? As far as I understand, we simply do not understand neuron activity at a low level enough to make such a thing feasible.

  > As far as I understand, we simply do not understand neuron activity at 
  > a low level enough to make such a thing feasible.
Henry Markram has always been adamant that there are enough details already discovered and put into the neurophysiology journals. Of course, now you have to fish that data out and into some usable format.

http://channelpedia.epfl.ch/ionchannels

http://www.neuroml.org/

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#19

Post by tgflynn »

Retric wrote: post #15
tgflynn wrote: post #12

I would feel less skeptical about the prospects for simulating the human brain if I had heard that someone had succeeded in simulating an infinitely simpler nervous system, say that of a spider, for instance, and obtained spider-like behavior from it.

10 years ago people simulated a nematode, a type of worm, and got nematode like behavior from it.

Do you have a reference ?

Do these worms exhibit non-trivial behavior or is it at the level of say reflex attraction to light sources ?

Re: New $1.6B supercomputer project will attempt to simulate the human brain

#20

Post by andreasvc »

martinced wrote: post #3

"...an international group of researchers has secured $1.6 billion..." An international group of researchers has scammed $1.6 billion away. And that's with EU taxpayers money. Do you really think that anyone involved in deciding to allow that kind of spending has any idea as to where we're at nowadays regarding AI? Did any of them read "On Intelligence" (its author knowing more than a thing or two about AI)? I'm sure…

While I share some of your misgivings about simulating brains, you do have to remember that giving lots of money to scientists for basic research is bound to come up with something useful and might as well lead to serendipitous results, regardless of hubris or wild ambitions. If only grant proposals that would very likely lead to something would be accepted, then there would be no basic research. The value of basic research is only cashed out much later, if at all.
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