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Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#11

Post by duaneb »

rorrr wrote: post #10
duaneb wrote: post #2

This seems to be a matter of confusion over the rules more than anything (though it sounds like there were some clear cut cases as well). After all, it sounds like they were able to use everything but each other for the exams, which seems like an atrocious way to prepare students for the "real world".

So how do you suggest they test students personally, without assholes taking advantage of the nice students who do all the work?

> So how do you suggest they test students personally, without assholes taking advantage of the nice students who do all the work?

If that was their intention, why did they allow open book, open internet, etc? Far better would be in-class timed tests and essays.

EDIT: Well, there is also merit to the approach they used, so perhaps they just should have been far more explicit about what collaboration is OK and what isn't. Come to think of it, I'm not quite sure where to draw the line myself, so I just err on the side of caution and don't discuss anything that could be graded until after deadlines have passed.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#12

Post by duaneb »

niggler wrote: post #3
duaneb wrote: post #2

This seems to be a matter of confusion over the rules more than anything (though it sounds like there were some clear cut cases as well). After all, it sounds like they were able to use everything but each other for the exams, which seems like an atrocious way to prepare students for the "real world".

The real world isn't a series of read and regurgitate cycles, and allowing students to use resources shifts the test focus from memorizing details to understanding. In the same vein, I also find interviewing by nitpicking to be poorly reflective of real world work -- when you are actually programming, you have access to tools like linters and google to help you when you are chasing down a bug (and its not entirely cl…

I meant more that in the real world you are not only expected but often required to work with your peers.

> In the same vein, I also find interviewing by nitpicking to be poorly reflective of real world work -- when you are actually programming, you have access to tools like linters and google to help you when you are chasing down a bug (and its not entirely clear how asking very subtle issues in a stressful situation like an interview represents the realities of working for the company)

In my recent interviews I've been encouraged to google in front of my interviewers if I didn't know something because they considered it crucial. So perhaps this is changing?

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#14

Post by rikacomet »

RK wrote: post #6
SagelyGuru wrote: post #4

Good god! Final exams at Harvard are 'take home'? I really thought that at least Harvard was a little more testing than that... Aside from the standard that sets, it is naive to the extreme to suppose that students allowed to take an important exam home will still write it just off the top of their head.

I think it's pretty common at "elite" schools in the US to have unsupervised, take home tests. Where I went to college we often had closed book, timed take home tests and I think compliance was actually extremely high.

aren't they elite, because the difficulty is elite as well?

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#15

Post by nhebb »

Eliezer wrote: post #13

So half of 279 (=~140) students cheat, and 70 are forced out. Gosh. It makes you wonder what sort of privilege the other 70 cheaters invoked. Who was sacrificed? Who was spared? Selective enforcement of the "law" is no law at all.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of the situation. The article didn't say that half the students were cheating. It said that half were suspected of cheating.

Of course, considering that it's an Introduction to Congress class, you could argue that the cheaters grasped the essence of Congress better than the non-cheaters.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#16

Post by blablabla123 »

beloch wrote: post #7
SagelyGuru wrote: post #4

Good god! Final exams at Harvard are 'take home'? I really thought that at least Harvard was a little more testing than that... Aside from the standard that sets, it is naive to the extreme to suppose that students allowed to take an important exam home will still write it just off the top of their head.

Take home exams can actually be quite brutal, but are rarely encountered in large (i.e. 100+ student) classes because they usually result in an correspondingly brutal amount of marking. I've had them only in a few senior undergrad courses and grad school. Why are they brutal when you have your notes, books, the web, etc. available? They're usually not based on spitting back answers you were given or can look up. You…

Not so much difference to exercises in difficult courses I encountered. But we called that homework. (Germany)

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#17

Post by EliRivers »

Eliezer wrote: post #13

So half of 279 (=~140) students cheat, and 70 are forced out. Gosh. It makes you wonder what sort of privilege the other 70 cheaters invoked. Who was sacrificed? Who was spared? Selective enforcement of the "law" is no law at all.

You don't know if the law was overlooked in those cases, or if they were found to be not guilty or significantly less guilty, or if they were simply given less harsh sentences. Discretion given to specify different sentences for the same crime is sensible.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#18

Post by ramblerman »

Eliezer wrote: post #13

So half of 279 (=~140) students cheat, and 70 are forced out. Gosh. It makes you wonder what sort of privilege the other 70 cheaters invoked. Who was sacrificed? Who was spared? Selective enforcement of the "law" is no law at all.

Half were suspected of cheating.

If to you, that sentence is synonymous with "half were cheating". I'd say it's your interpretation of the law that is suspect.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#19

Post by jopt »

Eliezer wrote: post #13

So half of 279 (=~140) students cheat, and 70 are forced out. Gosh. It makes you wonder what sort of privilege the other 70 cheaters invoked. Who was sacrificed? Who was spared? Selective enforcement of the "law" is no law at all.

This isn't selective enforcement, just evaluating each case individually.

Those enforcing a law are typically free to find different answers (punishments) to similar questions (crimes) as long as they can distinguish the case.

The big dangerous problem, rule-of-law-wise, is when a court deviates in its method of judging, not in its judgements.

Re: Harvard Forced Dozens to Leave in Cheating Scandal

#20

Post by Zigurd »

Eliezer wrote: post #13

So half of 279 (=~140) students cheat, and 70 are forced out. Gosh. It makes you wonder what sort of privilege the other 70 cheaters invoked. Who was sacrificed? Who was spared? Selective enforcement of the "law" is no law at all.

A cynic might predict Harvard's building plan that was suspended for the financial crisis will soon be back on track.
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