I agree with parts of it, but I disagree with the basic premise that hiring programmers is like renting cars. When you hire a programmer, it is like hiring a car mechanic, not a car driver. Some of the questions do seem appropriate to ask to a car mechanic.
What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
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Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#12[deleted]
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#13Maybe it's because I just made the egregious mistake of getting drawn into a gun-control debate with a friend and his friends on Facebook, but hyperbolic arguments by analogy feel really silly, cheap, and disingenuous to me right now...
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#14This makes no sense. Just like having a drivers license is no guarantee you are a good driver, having many years of job experience programming is no guarantee you are a programmer. On the other hand, you are liable for any damage you do to a car you rent, plus the company is fully insured in the case you do any damage and can't pay. Hiring and firing someone (which is the only real way to know if someone is a good de…
Actually it does, and spot on to boot. He's not saying "don't find a good programmer." He's saying that the questions they ask get them no closer to finding out whether he is a good programmer.
He's saying that the questions they ask get them no closer to finding out whether he is a good programmer.
A lot of the time they're not meant to. They're meant to figure out whether he's a bad programmer (or bad cultural fit, or something else bad).
The cost of hiring someone bad is way higher than most people would guess. I've come to believe that in many cases the questions asked in an interview almost don't matter - they're just there to give you an opportunity to fail, or to say something incredibly dumb or ignorant or obnoxious so that the interviewer can quickly reject you and avoid an expensive mistake.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#15While this seems "spot on" at first glance, I can tell you that when I interviewed at Google and Amazon (two years ago), it wasn't anywhere near this bad. Both places asked what might seem like contrived technical questions, but the thing is, you have to pick something that can be tested in an hour (or less). That, and it's not the answer that matters, but more your process of working a problem. They didn't seem to c…
My experience with Amazon was similar but at the end I was led to ask: "if the 1hr filter process isn't efficient at finding the best candidates, why do they do it?"
I think in the end its a balance of basic filtering vs. HR requirements. The process has to be objective and quantifiable so they're covered in the event of anyone calling foul play. Everyone gets the same treatment and there is a paper trail of reasons for why they turned you down.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#16I agree with parts of it, but I disagree with the basic premise that hiring programmers is like renting cars. When you hire a programmer, it is like hiring a car mechanic, not a car driver. Some of the questions do seem appropriate to ask to a car mechanic.
If you see a programming language as a tool like photoshop you certainly can see the renting car point.
I don't think every Java Coder would be able to tell how the internal mechanics of Java work. They aren't Java mechanics, they're just driving Java.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually it does, and spot on to boot. He's not saying "don't find a good programmer." He's saying that the questions they ask get them no closer to finding out whether he is a good programmer.
He's saying that the questions they ask get them no closer to finding out whether he is a good programmer. A lot of the time they're not meant to. They're meant to figure out whether he's a bad programmer (or bad cultural fit, or something else bad). The cost of hiring someone bad is way higher than most people would guess. I've come to believe that in many cases the questions asked in an interview almost don't matte…
As long as the interviewer treats it like that I'd be fine with it. If they are playing things the way you describe then answering a question with "why does it matter?" would be a viable response and you'd be open to discussion about it.
The real world problem is that too many interviews follow the model because that's what they know from past experience themselves. They may not know why they ask such baseless questions, all they know is the answer they want and damn you if you don't give it to them.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#18While this seems "spot on" at first glance, I can tell you that when I interviewed at Google and Amazon (two years ago), it wasn't anywhere near this bad. Both places asked what might seem like contrived technical questions, but the thing is, you have to pick something that can be tested in an hour (or less). That, and it's not the answer that matters, but more your process of working a problem. They didn't seem to c…
Hiring practices of Google and Amazon are very unrepresentative of smaller companies and more heavily emphasize general intelligence, prestigious background and background in computer science. As you say, it's about the process of working a problem more than experience with specific tools.
However, most companies are smaller than Google and Amazon and have different practices. Sometimes, stupid practices, because the interviewers don't really know how to do it, just want to get it over with, or really care about things which aren't important.
But since they are in the hiring position and assume they and their company are awesome, they are not so likely to question their own technical or interviewing abilities and certainly don't want to hear what interviewees have to say about it.
You need additional insights beyond just doing the job to understand what makes someone else useful in that job. And if you don't even have that much, you are guaranteed to ask stupid questions and end up with people selected for how good they are at selling and how much you think they're cool.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually it does, and spot on to boot. He's not saying "don't find a good programmer." He's saying that the questions they ask get them no closer to finding out whether he is a good programmer.
He's saying that the questions they ask get them no closer to finding out whether he is a good programmer. A lot of the time they're not meant to. They're meant to figure out whether he's a bad programmer (or bad cultural fit, or something else bad). The cost of hiring someone bad is way higher than most people would guess. I've come to believe that in many cases the questions asked in an interview almost don't matte…
If you hire someone who is boring and has no obvious problem but isn't very productive, you have your ass covered. His lack of productivity is his fault. If you hire someone exceptionally useful with some notable problem, or even just some notable flavor someone doesn't like, it is something you should have noticed and you are liable. A lot of companies want an unblemished calf more than they want a Zed Shaw.
Re: What If Cars Were Rented Like We Hire Programmers?
#20Why no one asks questions that show deep understanding of the work and not technical details that can be googled in a second.
Like - can you land Curiosity with off the shelf java and JVM? Why or why not?