It's interesting the dynamic that IT fields have added to the immigration issue. In a broad sense, it makes for different "kinds" of immigrants, with different skill sets, etc. And I can't help wondering if this adds an element to this country's understanding of race. That's to say: IT has changed the way we see immigration from China and India - more so, I think, than from any other country. Has it changed the way we see the people themselves? Is it a pos. or neg. influence? What does that mean for the way we see immigrants from countries like Mexico that often work in jobs that are harder to organize? And what are these magic factors that so well prepare one or two groups of immigrants for the American work force? Is it the educational systems in India and China? And maybe I'm crazy - does anyone else think IT is playing a role in our collective approach to race?
The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
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Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#12I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself, and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching 'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English speaker could dedicate one or two d…
Is there any reason why Beijing is better than other large Chinese cities? I heard it was expensive and polluted. As for teaching English, do you have first-hand experience backing the (very high) 60$/hr figure? And what kind of visa will you get?
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#13This article is about the problems that happen when foreign nationals with engineering backgrounds no longer want to live in the US. But it could just as easily be about what happens when the US is no longer able to fill these positions from its own population. And I suspect that there is a correlation between the huge numbers of visas issued and the slow decline of interest among Americans in these fields.
I know, it isn't entirely a zero sum game. But when I graduated with an MS in Engineering from Berkeley, we definitely weren't pulling in the starting salaries that the law and business students were earning - even the PhD students weren't at that level, not even close. And guess what? The MBA and Law programs had no problem attracting Americans, whereas Engineering had very few.
This article does highlight a danger, but it doesn't really suggest one good solution - encourage Americans into these fields, and this time, don't undermine their careers.
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#14Hum... It is not that they (we) are leaving, it is more like they (we) are not even going.
I'm a Spaniard, I have worked in five different countries in Europe and Latin America. I'm currently settled in the U.K. I have worked as a consultant, as a developer in a "one-product" company and now I´m working as an in-house developer in a non-tech company.
It simply does not make sense to relocate to USA for me. I have had a couple of offers to work in Boston or New York in the last few years and I turned them down. Weak dollar versus euro means that I won´t be able to pay my euro denominated mortgage while living in the U.S. I am free to work anywhere within the European Union, and I have always been very welcomed in Spanish speaking American countries while I would need some paperwork to work in the U.S.
The political climate doesn't help either. I have never been in the U.S. and I realize that T.V. is not necessarily correlated to real life, but every other day you get news about some guy who was traveling to the U.S. for some perfectly legitimate reason, with all their legal documents in good shape and gets detained at the border for 30 hours, their families are not notified and they are not allowed to drink, eat or sleep.
On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons) who travel frequently from Europe to the U.S.,for both professional and personal reasons. They have never had problems in the border. There is clearly a dissonance between my "real-life" experience and my "media-induced" experience. Nonetheless, if I had to travel there, I would be a bit scared... my mother would definitely be very scared.
I really hope that things change. My wife is eager to spend a few years living in the U.S. We won't be going for now... may be during Obama's second term (if it happens) it would be economically feasible (strong dollar) and professionally interesting for me. As anyone with a passion for our craft, I have read countless histories about Silicon Valley, and I think the odds would be better for my own (future) start-up in there rather than in Europe, where bureaucracy and lack of funding make things more difficult.
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#15I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself, and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching 'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English speaker could dedicate one or two d…
Is there any reason why Beijing is better than other large Chinese cities? I heard it was expensive and polluted. As for teaching English, do you have first-hand experience backing the (very high) 60$/hr figure? And what kind of visa will you get?
If you're seeking tech employees, Beijing is probably the easiest place to find them. It's China's tech hub - the best universities are there. Google and MS, for example, locate their headquarters right next to Tsinghua University (China's MIT).
It's not expensive compared to Shanghai, but it is more expensive than some of the lesser known big cities like Chongqing or Wuhan.
The pollution is bad in Beijing. That's the only real downside, from my perspective. Shanghai is certainly cleaner. I'm not sure about the other big cities, but I'd bet they're something like BJ in terms of pollution.
I do have first-hand experience on the teaching money, but I also advertised to my students that I have a degree from a prestigious American university, so my sample data might be skewed.
Tourist visa for as long as possible (fewer hassles), but eventually I'll need to switch to a business visa.
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there any reason why Beijing is better than other large Chinese cities? I heard it was expensive and polluted. As for teaching English, do you have first-hand experience backing the (very high) 60$/hr figure? And what kind of visa will you get?
If you're seeking tech employees, Beijing is probably the easiest place to find them. It's China's tech hub - the best universities are there. Google and MS, for example, locate their headquarters right next to Tsinghua University (China's MIT). It's not expensive compared to Shanghai, but it is more expensive than some of the lesser known big cities like Chongqing or Wuhan. The pollution is bad in Beijing. That's th…
At least back in 2006, Beijing was more polluted than most other Chinese cities (a notable exception be Lanzhou, which is ridiculous). This is in part due to the huge population, but also due to the geography (there are mountains nearby that trap a lot of pollutants, like LA -- and the Gobi desert is close enough to blow a lot of stuff in as well).
I lived pretty well there on about $700 / month (going out and with a 2 bedroom apartment).
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#17I am working from India for the past 3 months instead of my San Francisco office. Nearly every large IT company in India offers benefits at par with Google. Yes I mean multiple food vendors. Food being served 6 times a day. The salary of an IT professional in India easily puts him among the highest wage earners in India (something similar to how Wall Street traders were a couple of years ago). Chauffeur driven cars,…
Food being served 6 times a day.
Breakfast, Second Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Dinner and Supper?
I suppose this confirms the theory that IT workers are all hobbits.
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#18There are some interesting comments in http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/02bcrisis-100000-pros-m...
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#19At the risk of getting modded to oblivion again, I'll say it again: we need to change our immigration policies to encourage high-skill immigration from high-IQ countries, and discourage low-skill immigration from low-IQ countries. We don't need more yard-workers -- they don't contribute much to GDP, suck up a lot of social services (tax dollars), and even their grand-children have trouble graduating high school.
Build a fence across the Mexican border (it's cheap, and it worked for Israel despite the naysaying) and require high-level skills for every immigrant coming in after tomorrow.
Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving
#20Hum... It is not that they (we) are leaving, it is more like they (we) are not even going. I'm a Spaniard, I have worked in five different countries in Europe and Latin America. I'm currently settled in the U.K. I have worked as a consultant, as a developer in a "one-product" company and now I´m working as an in-house developer in a non-tech company. It simply does not make sense to relocate to USA for me. I have had…
> every other day you get news about some guy who
> On the other hand, I personally know some people (about 15 persons)
Not to defend the US Immigration service, but those samples aren't comparable - one is orders of magnitude larger and less reliable.