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Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

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Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#11

Post by mtgx »

microtonal wrote: post #10
josteink wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I find it odd that despite Apple winning the world-championship in patent-trolling and is leading the fight for closed systems and walled gardens, FSF still decides to go after anyone but Apple. Despite this tarnished image of a former tech-innovist, does the FSF really still feel it's impossible to fight the root evil here because of public perception? Is it only picking on Microsoft because that is easier to…

We should fight against the forces against general purpose computing I have very mixed feelings about this very topic. As a developer, I completely agree with you. Hardware should be hackable and software replaceable. But there's also another side: computing has become a lot easier for the average user. E.g. the iPhone and the iPad were the first computers that my mother really grasped and was able to use comfortably…

I think that argument is bogus. Having a way to sideload apps in your device or being able to install a different OS, doesn't make grandma more likely to get malware. It's the same model Apple is using in Mac OS X, too, now.

Grandma will still use the same OS, and will still install apps from the app store, never knowing that she can even install apps from other places, and it will be just as easy as it if were without that sideloading option. Having the option to do other things doesn't interfere with any of that.

And even if it does change things a little in some extreme cases - but everything has its positive and negative sides. Everything. At the end of the day you have to decide which gives the greater benefit. And I think having "open" computing systems over completely closed ones, offers the greater benefit in the long term, just like having an open (also could be read as malware-filled, and cybercriminals-filled) Internet in the end if is of much greater benefit than having one fully controlled by the government and companies.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#12

Post by cooldeal »

mtgx wrote: post #9
josteink wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I find it odd that despite Apple winning the world-championship in patent-trolling and is leading the fight for closed systems and walled gardens, FSF still decides to go after anyone but Apple. Despite this tarnished image of a former tech-innovist, does the FSF really still feel it's impossible to fight the root evil here because of public perception? Is it only picking on Microsoft because that is easier to…

I agree FSF should fight against Apple, too, and even though they would make a lot of enemies because of it, I think making a lot of enemies this way and becoming that controversial is a lot better than being obscure, because in the same time they'd be gaining a lot of allies, too. I think FSF fighting against Apple's closed policies would ultimately make them more popular and help them. That being said I don't reall…

>..trying to stop Windows 8 machines becoming as closed as iPads before they even get a chance to take off the ground. Better (and easier) to kill off a bad idea early on.

Huh? Where can I access the option on an iPad to turn off secure boot or to add my own keys or to delete Apple's? Windows 8 machines are much much more open than an iPad.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#13

Post by kryptiskt »

mtgx wrote: post #9
josteink wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I find it odd that despite Apple winning the world-championship in patent-trolling and is leading the fight for closed systems and walled gardens, FSF still decides to go after anyone but Apple. Despite this tarnished image of a former tech-innovist, does the FSF really still feel it's impossible to fight the root evil here because of public perception? Is it only picking on Microsoft because that is easier to…

I agree FSF should fight against Apple, too, and even though they would make a lot of enemies because of it, I think making a lot of enemies this way and becoming that controversial is a lot better than being obscure, because in the same time they'd be gaining a lot of allies, too. I think FSF fighting against Apple's closed policies would ultimately make them more popular and help them. That being said I don't reall…

> Better (and easier) to kill off a bad idea early on.

Yeah, so they should have gone on an all out offensive when the iPad launched. Now there's a huge precedent they will have to try to explain away, why it doesn't apply and Microsoft's stuff have to be open but not their competitors'.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#14

Post by rimantas »

josteink wrote: post #8
recoiledsnake wrote: post #6

>We will fight Microsoft's attempt at enforcing Restricted Boot on ARM devices like smartphones and tablets. Like any other computer, users must be able to install free software operating systems on these devices. We will monitor Microsoft's behavior to make sure they do not deceive the public again by expanding these restrictions to other kinds of systems I love how Windows RT devices which are struggling to ship a…

Yeah. I find it odd that despite Apple winning the world-championship in patent-trolling and is leading the fight for closed systems and walled gardens, FSF still decides to go after anyone but Apple. Despite this tarnished image of a former tech-innovist, does the FSF really still feel it's impossible to fight the root evil here because of public perception? Is it only picking on Microsoft because that is easier to…

  > Every dollar spent in an Apple-store is money spent
  > against the core of your profession.
Bullshit. Every dollar I spent on Apple was spent on top quality product which made me more productive. I also spend a considerable amount on App Store paying my colleagues for their work.

  > Stop spending money
  > there. And throw away your iPhones and Macbooks. They are
  > bad karma and software blood-money.
Even more bullshit. You know why FSF avoid fighting Apple? It's because that fight would reveal that they are fighting in the wrong war. Not everybody in the world should be a doctor, a car mechanic, IT technician, or developer. It is so sad to see so many otherwise smart people failing to realise this.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#15

Post by sounds »

This article has a better list of Linux OEMs than I've ever seen before. (Yeah, yeah, I need to get out more :)

• Freedom Included http://freedomincluded.com

• Garlach44 http://garlach44.eu

• InaTux http://inatux.com

• Lemote http://lemote.com/en

• Los Alamos Computers http://laclinux.com

• System76 https://www.system76.com

• ThinkPenguin http://thinkpenguin.com

• ZaReason http://zareason.com

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#16

Post by tzs »

mtgx wrote: post #7
k-mcgrady wrote: post #5

I disagree with secure boot on regular desktops but I'm not sure how I feel about it on ARM devices (specifically tablets). I feel like the only people who are going to change the OS on a tablet are geeks - it won't affect ordinary consumers who won't want to change the OS especially as tablet hardware and software is so integrated. Is it possible to hack this or will it even affect geeks who do want to install the O…

Why make the difference between the two? What's so special about tablets that they deserve restricted boot, but PC's do not? They're just all computers. What's worse is that in the future these computers will be a lot more popular than PC's ever were. That means more people will be restricted by default. Most tablets and phones just happen to come with a different chip architecture, but there is nothing inherent to t…

One major difference between phones and desktops is that phones are often subsidized.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#18

Post by Fire30 »

microtonal wrote: post #10
josteink wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I find it odd that despite Apple winning the world-championship in patent-trolling and is leading the fight for closed systems and walled gardens, FSF still decides to go after anyone but Apple. Despite this tarnished image of a former tech-innovist, does the FSF really still feel it's impossible to fight the root evil here because of public perception? Is it only picking on Microsoft because that is easier to…

We should fight against the forces against general purpose computing I have very mixed feelings about this very topic. As a developer, I completely agree with you. Hardware should be hackable and software replaceable. But there's also another side: computing has become a lot easier for the average user. E.g. the iPhone and the iPad were the first computers that my mother really grasped and was able to use comfortably…

The gates should not be completely closed though. By default maybe, but there should definitely be a way to make it open for the people that want it to be open. For example I received a hp pavilion laptop and wanted to install another os on it. All I had to do was set secure mode off in the bios and it was ready. That is a good solution because it works for both the grandma who wants the security of secure-boot, and me who wants to tinker.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#19

Post by wmf »

sounds wrote: post #15

This article has a better list of Linux OEMs than I've ever seen before. (Yeah, yeah, I need to get out more :) • Freedom Included http://freedomincluded.com • Garlach44 http://garlach44.eu • InaTux http://inatux.com • Lemote http://lemote.com/en • Los Alamos Computers http://laclinux.com • System76 https://www.system76.com • ThinkPenguin http://thinkpenguin.com • ZaReason http://zareason.com

Actually I think those OEMs need to get the word out more. It's not the customers' fault if a company has such poor marketing that prospective customers haven't even heard of it.

Re: Support the FSF: Help us stop Restricted Boot

#20

Post by josteink »

tzs wrote: post #16
mtgx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why make the difference between the two? What's so special about tablets that they deserve restricted boot, but PC's do not? They're just all computers. What's worse is that in the future these computers will be a lot more popular than PC's ever were. That means more people will be restricted by default. Most tablets and phones just happen to come with a different chip architecture, but there is nothing inherent to t…

One major difference between phones and desktops is that phones are often subsidized.

So are computers with their "free" antivirus included. But let's not care about that.

Why should that make a difference?

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