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Fear Not Deflation

forbes.com

11–20 of 46 posts

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#11

This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government. Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend. Do they have to spe…

Up voted. Would add that in a deflationary environment no one will want credit so really you have to print money and give it away (or just print it and spend it).

Or you'll have to allow some form of fiat currency as an alternative currency. Or you'll have to more-or-less allow the entire real economy to collapse as the exponentially dropping remnants of actual aggregate demand become utterly unable to facilitate, or rather justify, real trade.

One last point: deflation always favors whoever, in a transaction, is the creditor/seller. In a certain sense, this is not only economically harmful but morally unfair. After all, if I pay a contractor $150k to build me a house (assume I own the land and we're only paying for construction), what I'm really doing, underneath the illusion of money, is trading my skills and property (program code, raw building materials) for his skills and property (architecture, construction, use of his materials and tools). In theory, this can and should be modeled as a spot-trade of my stuff for his stuff with no unwanted side-effects.

But once we get money and its time-value (deeply affected by deflation) involved, then one of us has an automatic advantage over the other based on the currency value when the work is done and when the payment is made. If the currency is deflating, even predictably, then whoever gets paid has an automatic advantage over whoever does the paying. An arbitrage opportunity across time has appeared solely because we involved currency.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#12
Since neither Forbes nor the author, Jon Matonis, saw fit to point this out, I will.

This is an op-ed piece, written by a board member of the Bitcoin Foundation. Regardless of the merit of the article, it should have been explicitly stated in the piece.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#13

This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government. Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend. Do they have to spe…

Up voted. Would add that in a deflationary environment no one will want credit so really you have to print money and give it away (or just print it and spend it).

But what about free currency competition? Allow all kind of currencies co-exist. Those who want inflation can use the inflatable currencies, the people demanding deflation can use more deflationary currencies.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#14

This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen. Its only real point is that commodity-based currencies and deflations weaken government. Furthermore, its idiotic praise of societal-level saving is pure nonsense. My income is someone else's expenditure, my credit is someone else's debt. Money can obscure this fact, not alter it. In order for me to save, someone else must spend. Do they have to spe…

> This has got to be one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever seen.

It's pretty dumb. Really, thoroughly dumb. But you've added some real bloopers of your own:

> If we have a standard-issue modern currency, ie: slow but steady rate of inflation targeted by a central bank, then some amount of new money enters the economy each year. As long as total new savings in the year don't exceed this amount, then and only then can everyone save at the same time.

This is not true. Not even close. First, you are conflating two different concepts: (a) an increase in the money supply and (b) inflation. Inflation is often the result of an increase in the money supply, but that's not what it is: inflation is an increase in how much stuff costs. That is, it's a general increase in prices.

And prices can move broadly in one direction or another for many reasons other than a change in the supply of money; the price-level depends also on how fast money circulates, on the level of supply and demand for goods and services, and on all sorts of related factors.

Second, the possibility of saving does not depend on an increase in the supply of money. Doubtless you are thinking of saving in accounting terms: to save means to have more money later than you have now, so in aggregate that must mean that there needs to be more money in the economy tomorrow than there is today.

No. Saving is one side of the saving-investment process, which is about doing useful work and creating new things. That work and those things are abstractly called wealth and have value; wealth and value can be denominated in money, and people use money to facilitate the transfer of different sorts of wealth. But wealth is not money, and saving is about accumulating wealth, not money.

You're absolutely correct that if saving were merely about financial wealth, about increasing one's "value on paper", then we would need more money to gain wealth as a society. But it's not, and we don't need more money to accumulate wealth as a society precisely because it's not the money we value, but the things and the results of useful work. And so people trade their money for new things and results, and we can grow wealthier without increasing the money supply.

> In a gold-backed inherently-deflationary currency without fractional reserve banking or government fiat to create inflation.... all savings is zero-sum.

On the savings part, see above. On the part of about a gold-backed currency, or really any commodity currency, here's the thing: they're not inherently deflationary, or even fixed in supply. It's just that growth of the money supply is tied to things like improvements in mining technology or the results of prospecting. What I find really funny when I hear Ron Paul or somebody advocate a return to the gold standard and the abolition of the Federal Reserve is that they're really arguing for handing over monetary policy to the mining industry!

> Deflation is bad for the same reason inflation is bad, namely that an unexpected change in currency value alters the real terms of almost all business contracts ex post facto.

Yes, right. (Though it's really uncertainty about changes in the price level that inhibit useful economic activity. Change itself is not bad, but its unpredictability is.)

> ... But deflation is also distinctly bad for another reason: once it kicks in, there is no incentive for net creditors/savers to engage in any real production of anything.

There is less incentive, not none. Deflation represents a real income stream (that is, a constant potential accumulation of goods and services), but just as you might choose to work more (or harder) to increase your income, so you might during a deflationary period.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up voted. Would add that in a deflationary environment no one will want credit so really you have to print money and give it away (or just print it and spend it).

But what about free currency competition? Allow all kind of currencies co-exist. Those who want inflation can use the inflatable currencies, the people demanding deflation can use more deflationary currencies.

There can not really be competition between currencies, since the major advantage of a currency is that everyone uses it. ( Compare the situation to a situation where some people offer meat for arrowheads and other berries for bone knives. )

And besides, sellers will want to use deflationary currencies, because then they raise prices without changing the nominal price. Therefore no one would be able to use a inflationary currency.

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#16

Since neither Forbes nor the author, Jon Matonis, saw fit to point this out, I will. This is an op-ed piece, written by a board member of the Bitcoin Foundation. Regardless of the merit of the article, it should have been explicitly stated in the piece.

The prominent author bio in the right column discloses his Bitcoin Foundation affiliation, and as a signed 'contributor' piece, it's 'opinion' by format and convention. (They also include a "The opinions expressed are those of the writer" note under the bio.)

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#17
post #6

Deflation is a disaster for anyone with debts as the value of them grows rather than being inflated away. So while it may be OK in the bit coin world (as I don't believe there are any significant bit coin denominated debts) deflation would cause massive economic contraction in the real world as debts would grow reducing spending and there is reason to believe it would not converge rapidly to an equilibrium (certainly…

Wouldn't this be compensated for by lower rates for lending?

There are very low incentives to investing when the markets are shrinking, and even less to employ people. Now, tell me why lower rates are usually considered a good thing for business?

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who will survive if nobody produces anything for anybody to consume or horde? Imagine that the farmers of the world decided not to produce anything for us to eat and instead only horde stuff.

People would spend for food but save as much money as possible making the economy contract with demand in a depression. Hopefully the government would turn on the printing presses and step in as spender of last resort before the food ran out.

People probably wouldn't do anything else than just buy that food, and wait for the world to end? LOL

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#19

Since neither Forbes nor the author, Jon Matonis, saw fit to point this out, I will. This is an op-ed piece, written by a board member of the Bitcoin Foundation. Regardless of the merit of the article, it should have been explicitly stated in the piece.

[deleted]

Re: Fear Not Deflation

#20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what about free currency competition? Allow all kind of currencies co-exist. Those who want inflation can use the inflatable currencies, the people demanding deflation can use more deflationary currencies.

There can not really be competition between currencies, since the major advantage of a currency is that everyone uses it. ( Compare the situation to a situation where some people offer meat for arrowheads and other berries for bone knives. ) And besides, sellers will want to use deflationary currencies, because then they raise prices without changing the nominal price. Therefore no one would be able to use a inflatio…

> There can not really be competition between currencies, since the major advantage of a currency is that everyone uses it.

There already exists global competition between fiat currencies... The competition exists but the competition has bery high barrier to entry.

> And besides, sellers will want to use deflationary currencies, because then they raise prices without changing the nominal price. Therefore no one would be able to use a inflationary currency.

Nope, seller doesn't care if the conversion process is painless. Almost all sellers on the internet accept any currencies - for example, US sellers accept euros without knowing that they accept euros. Payment processors do the conversion.

In the end, the thing that matters is what kind of currency each participant wants to hold. If the buyer wants to hold currency A and seller currency B, they both can still do trade, if there exist somewhat efficient market between currency A and B. And there probably exists, currency markets are probably the first thing to evolve for any kind of usable currency.

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