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Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#11

Post by ed_balls »

I mean this sympathetically, but you and your partner seem to have an unhealthy relationship with work.

Employment is a business transaction. You sell the company your time - it gives you money. That’s the deal. The company is not your family, your father or a secret ledger of who worked hardest.

Think of it like buying groceries. You don’t expect the supermarket to love you because you’ve shopped there for 15 years. The supermarket doesn’t expect you to keep buying burnt bread out of loyalty. Either side can end the transaction when it stops making economic sense.

Once you understand this, corporate behavior becomes much less mysterious and much less emotionally destructive. You stop thinking you must deserve to be seen, deserve to be noticed, deserve to be loved.

There are no sacrifice points. Unused vacation days aren’t loyalty deposits. Working nights isn’t an insurance policy. Being liked by 30 people doesn’t give you 30 votes at budget time.

Your partner may have been excellent, and the executive may be a fool. Both things can be true. But a corporation is a bundle of incentives, budgets, politics, and contracts wearing a branded hoodie.

Do good work. Be kind to colleagues. Take pride in your craft. But take your vacation, keep your CV fresh, maintain relationships outside the company and never EVER outsource your sense of worth to an org chart.

Talk to an expert on relationships.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#12

Post by mattbrewsbytes »

I've seen a fair share of personalities in middle/upper management. My hypothesis is that in large organizations, people that operate at that level often exhibit more survival skills that are ruthless than moral. A common characteristic I've seen is they manage "up" well and are often not good managers themselves. So if they control the narrative with their management, even when they screw up everything, its articulated as something else and not their fault, they may even believe that to be true.

I don't think it matters what industry it is, you get an organization large enough and some humans start exhibiting these behaviors, they often rise up in leadership ranks.

Have you ever read the Ribbonfarm series about organizational/management theory tied to The Office?[0] Its worth a read or a refresh. It might even be cathartic reading for your partner after an event like this.

[0] https://ribbonfarm.com/series/the-gervais-principle/

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#13

Post by hypfer »

mittermayr wrote: post #10
hypfer wrote: post #6

Have you read the Gervais Principle? => https://ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-t...

thank you for that, I actually enjoyed reading this. that's also sort of what I was hoping to find in response to my thoughts here; other people who've sorted through the mess to try and find some (even if comical) sense in it all.

Wait, I've posted the link 6 minutes ago and this reply is now 2 minutes old. You cannot possibly have read that.

Unless this is an autonomous agent doing some engagement work thingy. Which the tone + story sounds like.

Dang DAAAAAANG

Heeeeelp, the robots are at it again

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#14

Post by mittermayr »

Apreche wrote: post #9

Because corporations are autocratic. All power is top down. Make corporations democratic with bottom up power structures, and the opposite will happen. Leadership will face blame for everything, and the bottom rung will never.

Yeah but why does it always end up in such autocratic behavior? On paper, I'd naively argue, any team or organization, or even individual, who continues to actually deliver value for the company, shouldn't they get to have a say in where the ship could go to avoid sinking it?

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#15

Post by mittermayr »

hypfer wrote: post #13
mittermayr wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thank you for that, I actually enjoyed reading this. that's also sort of what I was hoping to find in response to my thoughts here; other people who've sorted through the mess to try and find some (even if comical) sense in it all.

Wait, I've posted the link 6 minutes ago and this reply is now 2 minutes old. You cannot possibly have read that. Unless this is an autonomous agent doing some engagement work thingy. Which the tone + story sounds like. Dang DAAAAAANG Heeeeelp, the robots are at it again

No I'm real, but I've actually refreshed here, saw the link, saw Dilbert mentioned, felt sad about how much joy that used to give me many years ago and how awkwardly that all ended, and off I was reading through it. Only note I have on the article is it'll be a bit too soon to mention to her that she's represented by the loser category in this theory :)

(p.s., my poor English should actually quickly give away that I'm even too lazy to auto-correct, that's the last thing AI will take from me, ha!)

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#16

Post by tclancy »

>how do these people consistently survive their self-inflicted disasters?

There's a lot of good answers here. One supplement I would make to a few of them is it is harder to fire or punish someone the more they resemble you. A lot easier to see the fault in a woman a couple of rungs down than a guy your age who looks a lot like you and you've had beers with for a decade. The (truly) wealthy aren't like me and you. And in a crisis you'll find out how they're different real quick.

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#18

Post by aristofun »

I think it’s the same pattern playing out as in politics - even the dumbest people get too powerful, too lucky or too influential to even realize the problem. But its often beneficial to large enough amount of bad actors who play along and support.

Suppose some top executive has a choice - do something right for long term success of a company vs something sketchy and detrimental but get huge yearly bonus in the pocket.

Are you rock solid you yourself would always go with the right thing?

Re: Ask HN: Why do corporate failures always seem to punish the wrong people?

#20

Post by mittermayr »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #12

I've seen a fair share of personalities in middle/upper management. My hypothesis is that in large organizations, people that operate at that level often exhibit more survival skills that are ruthless than moral. A common characteristic I've seen is they manage "up" well and are often not good managers themselves. So if they control the narrative with their management, even when they screw up everything, its articula…

Great comment, I like the "managing up" part, I'll share that with her. I think this is actually a solid piece of explaining part of the puzzle. Her entire focus was on her team, she's always been taking care of that part first. The dude who ran the train off the rails has zero interest in her and her peers (part of who have also been let go now), so it's likely he's been doing a great job managing the story from his level upwards. The Gervais principle was just posted a moment ago by someone else, I enjoyed reading that!
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