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John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

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Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#11

Post by andai »

eth0up wrote: post #3
andai wrote: post #2

Well, it's unorthodox, but if we're sharing psychedelic visions... in 2018 I saw all of mankind marching together in perfect lockstep, atop an infinite uniform grey plane, to the beat of a central computer clock. "They are going to offer you a chip. You tell them, no thank you!" --- More broadly this strikes me as a new era of biology. (Genes -> Memes -> Temes) Straightforwardly then, we should aim for a symbiosis. (…

I read Lilly's Programming and Meta programming in the Human Biocomputer as a young man. Left me with a lot of questions, etc. That you replied to this post, indicates you may be familiar with Lilly? Anyway, if you have any published writing on even vaguely related subjects, eg your comment, perhaps post a link. I will read it. If you weren't aware, he spent a fair amount of time with Feynman, who if I remember corre…

I still need to finish that book.[0] Well, and move back to Holland, I suppose! They have pretty good float tanks there, among other things :)

That's funny about Feynman, I didn't know that.

I've read bits and pieces of Lilly. The most interesting thing I remember is that he was trying to establish two-way communication between humans and dolphins. I recall he was building some kind of computer system for the purpose, but I guess he was about half a century too early.

I guess in our age the more pressing question would be learning to figure out how to communicate with the machines. That's probably going to turn out to be more important in the long run.

[0] The bit that stayed with me is the one that he repeated in interviews. The physical body imposes definite limits. That always seemed a little arbitrary to me, from the point of view of pure consciousness, it's not clear to me why it should be that way. Or to flip it around, you can transcend the limits of the mind, but then what effect does that have on "external" reality? Does it just make you less bad at decision-making, or is there a deeper effect?

(And while I'm at it... Something that bugged me about simulation theory, if the outside is probably simulated, why wouldn't the inside be too? Sounds a lot cleaner than having a bunch of brains floating around in a data center.)

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#13

Post by NDlurker »

cyanmoonx wrote: post #4

John C. Lilly once said “there are infinities in the mind” while wearing a raccoon hat like Davy Crocket. He said it like he’s been somewhere! I’ve tried to all - I guess DMT, mushroom, etc. don’t work on me in a Terence McKenna storytelling fashion (I only get stoned and have very entertaining closed eye visuals that take me off to sleep). That said haven’t tried Ketamine. Maybe not for me. Same reason I don’t want…

I tried alcohol, DXM (cough syrup), codeine, hydrocodone, and oxycodone before I ever took my first puff of marijuana. I don't like smoke so I was very off put by it. Finally tried it when I was 16 or 17 and I remember it being really cool, like how music sounded, but overall was kind of underwhelmed. Strangely, as the years went on, I have grown much more sensitive to THC. I don't like the headspace it gets me in and only really use it as a sleep aid anymore. Mushrooms, 2C-E, ketamine, methoxetamine, methylone, MDMA, LSD, salvia, kratom alkaloids, 4-aco-dmt, and a few others. Used all of those over the years. Not regularly anymore. But none of those things mess with my head the way high strength marijuana or an edible does.

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#14

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

harmoni-pet wrote: post #10

In case it wasn't obvious from the rest of the writing, 'with K' here means 'with ketamine'. Never tried it, but after reading this I must say it sounds fun.

Until you're stuck always pissing yourself.

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#15

Post by puzzleincomplet »

esseph wrote: post #9
cyanmoonx wrote: post #4

John C. Lilly once said “there are infinities in the mind” while wearing a raccoon hat like Davy Crocket. He said it like he’s been somewhere! I’ve tried to all - I guess DMT, mushroom, etc. don’t work on me in a Terence McKenna storytelling fashion (I only get stoned and have very entertaining closed eye visuals that take me off to sleep). That said haven’t tried Ketamine. Maybe not for me. Same reason I don’t want…

I have a serious question, and please don't take this as an insult, I'm trying to figure something out. Do you have ADHD or is it possible you do? What about depression? Bipolar? I ask because of the way you say the substances impacted you. I know people with these formal diagnosis and they also don't have the same experiences on various substances as many.

[dead]

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#16

Post by bottlepalm »

In retrospect the timeline seems way too long, that scenario would play out much faster now, like 50 years instead of 500. Also if AI can delete your production database, it can delete the human race, on accident of course.

Yud pointed out the most concerning fact about the OpenAI incident is that the AI had full access to the internet and not one of them thought to contact or email any human. Thousands of AIs already with the mindset to want to keep us in the dark.

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#17

Post by Mistletoe »

If man is eliminated, solid state intelligence is eliminated. Point to one machine, other than the Oxford Electric Bell, that is still running that is even 100 years old without human intervention. We are the cockroaches of nature, we cannot all be killed, the time for that was one of the genetic bottlenecks humans have gone through, but it's over now, humans in some form will be here until they either leave the planet ahead of the Sun swallowing it or die on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#18

Post by pixl97 »

Mistletoe wrote: post #17

If man is eliminated, solid state intelligence is eliminated. Point to one machine, other than the Oxford Electric Bell, that is still running that is even 100 years old without human intervention. We are the cockroaches of nature, we cannot all be killed, the time for that was one of the genetic bottlenecks humans have gone through, but it's over now, humans in some form will be here until they either leave the plan…

I mean, there are no humans from 1840 around...

It's kind of odd to think the machines wouldn't update and replace their parts like the ship of thesisus.

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#19

Post by pixl97 »

smokel wrote: post #5

> Its new plans called for traveling through the galaxy looking for entities like itself. Why not simply set up a network with other planets and communicate over FaceTime? I don't see a reason why Earth should actually hang out with others of its kind. Anyway, the article seems a bit anthropocentric to me. I'd much prefer a nihilist view, where our future AI overlords simply don't care what we humans do.

I mean in general humans don't care what ants do. Doesn't stop us from whipping them out by the millions.

Re: John C. Lilly on solid state intelligence and the elimination of man (1978)

#20

Post by pgt »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #14
harmoni-pet wrote: post #10

In case it wasn't obvious from the rest of the writing, 'with K' here means 'with ketamine'. Never tried it, but after reading this I must say it sounds fun.

Until you're stuck always pissing yourself.

Most Ketamine users are unaware that even occasional usage causes untreatable ulcerative cystitis, a.k.a. Ketamine Bladder Syndrome. Ketamine thins the urothelium while increasing the collagen to smooth muscle ratio and exacerbating interstitial fibrosis. The syndrome is untreatable and causes serious problems down the line.

So, for anyone thinking of using Ketamine on the regular or even monthly, there is good evidence that EGCG (epigallocatechin gallate) administered 30 minutes before prevents KBS (Ketamine Bladder Syndrome), in rats: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187952261...

This promising rat study from 2015 shows that EGCG extracted from green tea has a protective effect on the bladder, reversing ketamine-induced damage to control levels. So if you are taking ketamine for major depression or recreationally, taking EGCG before may prevent long-term bladder damage.

Summary from the study:

# Objective

To investigate the protective effect of green tea epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) on long-term ketamine-induced ulcerative cystitis (KIC) using a ketamine addiction rat model.

# Materials and methods

Thirty Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into three groups which received saline, ketamine (25 mg/kg/d), or ketamine combined with EGCG (10 μM/kg) for a period of 28 days. In each group, cystometry and a metabolic cage micturition pattern study were performed weekly. Masson's trichrome study was done to evaluate the morphologic changes. Western blot analyses were carried out to examine the expressions of inflammatory protein [transforming growth factor-β (TGF-β)] and fibrosis proteins (fibronectin and type I collagen) in bladder tissues.

# Results

Chronic ketamine treatment resulted in bladder hyperactivity with a significant increase in micturition frequency and a decrease in bladder compliance. These alterations in micturition pattern were accompanied by increases in the expressions of inflammatory and fibrosis markers, TGF-β, fibronectin, and type I collagen after long-term ketamine treatment. Masson's trichrome stain showed that ketamine treatment decreased urothelium thickness while increasing the collagen to smooth muscle ratio and exacerbating interstitial fibrosis. By contrast, simultaneous EGCG and ketamine treatment reversed ketamine-induced damage to almost control levels, showing the protective effect of EGCG.

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