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A week in Matrix

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Re: A week in Matrix

#11

Post by fedpost »

pkulak wrote: post #9
fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

That’s Matrix. Matrix has spent too much time chasing Discord, with spaces, and group video chat, and email with federation. And too much time chasing Slack with threads. But everything you mentioned is core Matrix chat and works great on every client.

Yeah, it's a frustrating situation because we have hundreds of people and the constant state-sync issues and assorted account problems are making it hard for non-technical people to participate.

Re: A week in Matrix

#12

Post by 20k »

pkulak wrote: post #9
fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

That’s Matrix. Matrix has spent too much time chasing Discord, with spaces, and group video chat, and email with federation. And too much time chasing Slack with threads. But everything you mentioned is core Matrix chat and works great on every client.

Matrix still doesn't have a client with built in push to talk as far as I'm aware. The relevant issue on the Element github has been sat there for 8 years now

It does not seem like a serious project, at least not one being developed by folks who have user experience in mind

Re: A week in Matrix

#13

Post by zaik »

fedpost wrote: post #10
gertop wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you've tried or at least considered it, but you didn't explicitly mention it so: XMPP? The MUC extension has no problem with large groups (after a certain point you have to disable presence advertisement and reflections and whatnot, but that's way north of 100) XMPP has several ways of doing e2ee, the most popular being OMEMO. The challenge will be finding clients that supports OMEMO for MUCs (multi user cha…

This is a non-technical group so the main concern I have is the same with Element vs Element X vs Fluffy vs ...... It's definitely tempting though, it seems to be by far the most flexible solution.

It's an effect of walled gardens that the communication method is conflated with the app. But people understand well that Outlook and Thunderbird is both just email. I think this analogy helps when explaining XMPP.

Re: A week in Matrix

#14

Post by stryan »

fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

Nope, just Matrix. Second best option is XMPP with various cobbled together XEPs but that has its own set of problems.

For all the (sometimes rightful) grief Matrix gets, it's essentially the only solution targeting hard problems like multi-device encrypted group chats[0] or truly federated multi-user chats. It can also be a very quickly moving ecosystem, which is difficult to handle when you're an open federated spec. Hence why several of the complaints in this post are caused by old and no longer supported clients and servers.

[0] Infamously, WhatsApp and LINE both support encrypted chats but all the encryption keys are stored on your phone, so you can only have one phone working at a time and desktop access is actually routed through it.

Re: A week in Matrix

#15

Post by Klonoar »

kelnos wrote: post #4
bronson wrote: post #3

I feel this. And it doesn't even cover the very first conversation I have with my users. "You want to install Element" "But I want Matrix." "They call it Element now." "I want to speak on Element?" "No you want to speak on Matrix using Element." "Uh." "Don't worry about it. Look, just install Element." "Well, I see Element and Element X." "Oh right. Well, do you want to video chat?" "What?" "Element X doesn't video c…

God, it reads like a slapstick comedy routine...

Just wait, eventually you’ll see the same project reps come in and try to do damage control. It’s like the cherry on top of it all.

Re: A week in Matrix

#16

Post by NetOpWibby »

The unfortunate surprise with self-hosting Matrix is that Element X requires sliding sync and Element X cannot be installed on macOS if you have System Integrity turned off (I assume they store the keys in the Secure Enclave or something).

Conduit gained support for SS fairly recently so that’s good.

For a decent client, I’d recommend Cinny. There’s currently a fork of Cinny in development but it doesn’t work with my self-hosted server right now.

Re: A week in Matrix

#17

Post by solarkraft »

stryan wrote: post #14
fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

Nope, just Matrix. Second best option is XMPP with various cobbled together XEPs but that has its own set of problems. For all the (sometimes rightful) grief Matrix gets, it's essentially the only solution targeting hard problems like multi-device encrypted group chats[0] or truly federated multi-user chats. It can also be a very quickly moving ecosystem, which is difficult to handle when you're an open federated spe…

> and desktop access is actually routed through it

I think this is not true anymore. I’ve had it working with while my phone was off.

Re: A week in Matrix

#18

Post by NetOpWibby »

I host a matrix server and have three friends in it. One or all of them being unable to decrypt messages happens every few months and there’s no easy way to learn WHY do I reboot the server.

Annoying, but the other chat apps have trade-offs I don’t care for.

Re: A week in Matrix

#19

Post by louiskottmann »

Remark half-way in the rant they are using dendrite, an experimental matrix server implementation that has been abandonned. Thus ranting about it is cheeky at best.

I have been using synapse for years with little issue.

Re: A week in Matrix

#20

Post by joker99 »

fedpost wrote: post #5

Are there any real options in this space for something that is - E2EE - Large group capable (100+ users) - FOSS + self hostable - Not riddled with security issues - Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies) I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more. I'd rather not move to something as…

You‘re describing Wire. One could quibble about the FOSS part but it is open source (gplv3 or agpl). It’s used by a bunch of European governments and agencies, as well as American agencies, has regular security reviews and thanks to MLS, supports groups with more than 2k clients. Self hosting is a bit of a pain, but people are doing it.

Give it a try

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