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Better to Beg Forgiveness

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11–19 of 19 posts

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#11

In my career as a wage slave, I learned to never ask a lawyer for permission, as the answer was invariably "No" (unless one of the C-suiters asked, then the lawyer would bend over backwards to say "yes."). But if my risk manifested, I was on the gibbet. Ask forgiveness, but don't expect mercy, if you really screw the pooch.

I totally got yeses all the time, or don't worry about it, but generally when it had to do with are we allowed to do this under GDPR or similar things.

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#12

In my career as a wage slave, I learned to never ask a lawyer for permission, as the answer was invariably "No" (unless one of the C-suiters asked, then the lawyer would bend over backwards to say "yes."). But if my risk manifested, I was on the gibbet. Ask forgiveness, but don't expect mercy, if you really screw the pooch.

There are different ways to ask.

"Can I do X" - yeah that's likely gonna get a no if there's any ambiguity or question about it.

"The VP wants me to do X, what do I need to know" - probably a much more nuanced response. "Someone could make an argument that xyz violates abc, but there's also a counterargument that in this case..." (And put this question writing since it should (a) be privileged anyway - though you should check with legal first re: how they want you to indicate that, if at all and (b) it adds some paper trail if you need to escalate or if the decision is made to do something that later blows up.)

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#13

An aside: The phrase "paper over" is used several times, in a way that seems to mean review/look over. My understanding of that term is that it means to cover up or to hide. The earlier ones felt like perhaps condescending on the legalism (attorneys finding a way to make something work), but I couldn't shoehorn one of the later usages. Is this a different usage I am not familiar with? (As for the post itself I strong…

> it doesn't make sense to spend hours papering over a legal agreement with someone who wants to sell seven copies of a book at an anarchist book-fair

Huh, you're right. That's not at all a correct use of the phrase "paper over." There are three more uses, too, vaguer and thus less obviously wrong. I wonder what the deal is.

In this particular sentence, "going over" would fit.

However, in general I think Cory is (mis)using the phrase as if it means "legitimize" or "associate a paper trail with": not just to review the wording but to come up with the wording in the first place. (Not just "going over" but "working up.") I could just barely believe this is the jargon of some lawyerly (sub)culture.

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#16

> Fair use is important, but there's also "first sale," the doctrine that says that after you buy something, you own it, and copyright can't be used to interfere with your traditional property rights. That's why you can buy and sell used books, paintings, records, and other copyrighted work, even if they are sold with fine print that says you're not allowed to: Hopefully we can use this same logic to reform (destroy)…

The "You don't own it if you can't destroy it" discussion goes all the way back to people like Cicero and limitations on what you can and can not do with your slaves. What you desire is sensible and can only be achieved by political means; yet it is undermined already. Licenses are granted, not given. They remain the property of whoever issued it. Here fore, among other things, a discussion about property rights retains the frame used by those who abuse immaterial property rights. This is problematic because it's near impossible to achieve a political goal without setting the right language first.

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#17

[flagged]

Who did Doctorow run out of business?

Shit, yes. Who, please? The difficulty with sustained idealism is that business is pragmatic and tends to prevail regardless of the bad actions it commits. If Doctorow has been specifically successful, that would be really nice to hear!

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#18

An aside: The phrase "paper over" is used several times, in a way that seems to mean review/look over. My understanding of that term is that it means to cover up or to hide. The earlier ones felt like perhaps condescending on the legalism (attorneys finding a way to make something work), but I couldn't shoehorn one of the later usages. Is this a different usage I am not familiar with? (As for the post itself I strong…

> it doesn't make sense to spend hours papering over a legal agreement with someone who wants to sell seven copies of a book at an anarchist book-fair Huh, you're right. That's not at all a correct use of the phrase "paper over." There are three more uses, too, vaguer and thus less obviously wrong. I wonder what the deal is. In this particular sentence, "going over" would fit. However, in general I think Cory is (mis…

Several hours later, I'm trying to recover what I was thinking and am having a hard time doing so because I've kind of accepted the sense he's using the term in (ie let's paper over the legal details so that we can focus on things that are actually interesting). I think it was the last use, the one you quoted, that really had me scratching my head. But now that I've adopted the skewed/innovative definition I'm having a hard time re-seeing what I was finding an issue with.

It's perversely horrible if you think about the original meaning of paper in paper over (wallpaper), and imagine legal contracts covering the walls of a room - unfortunately quite close to the "reality" that we find ourselves increasingly operating in.

Re: Better to Beg Forgiveness

#19
post #16

> Fair use is important, but there's also "first sale," the doctrine that says that after you buy something, you own it, and copyright can't be used to interfere with your traditional property rights. That's why you can buy and sell used books, paintings, records, and other copyrighted work, even if they are sold with fine print that says you're not allowed to: Hopefully we can use this same logic to reform (destroy)…

The "You don't own it if you can't destroy it" discussion goes all the way back to people like Cicero and limitations on what you can and can not do with your slaves. What you desire is sensible and can only be achieved by political means; yet it is undermined already. Licenses are granted, not given. They remain the property of whoever issued it. Here fore, among other things, a discussion about property rights reta…

> They remain the property of whoever issued it.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Licenses like the CC suite, and the GNU GPL or MIT software licenses, cannot be revoked after the fact, nor changed. The licensor can choose to stop publishing a work under, for example, CC, but all those who still have a CC licensed copy of the work may continue to use it according to that license. And in fact, I believe they can even continue distributing it themselves, making a license change mostly useless (unless the work is updated I guess).

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