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Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

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Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#11

Post by oellegaard »

ahelwer wrote: post #5
oellegaard wrote: post #4

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.

Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#12

Post by oellegaard »

jnoller wrote: post #7
oellegaard wrote: post #4

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

I explained why the foundation should take an active role here: http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct - read the whole thing, especially the points about sponsorship and branding.

I did read the whole thing before writing my original reply. I see why you need to do it for PyCon, but I can't see why you need to demand it for the things you sponsor in PSF.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#13

Post by theorique »

oellegaard wrote: post #4

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

PSF isn't enforcing laws.

It's just setting a basic standard of behavior - be nice, don't be a jerk, don't harass people based on their personal characteristics.

And on the flip side, it's saying to people who otherwise might be reluctant to participate, thinking they would face prejudice, "hey, we got your back, prejudice against you is not allowed here".

Seems pretty innocuous.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#14

Post by oellegaard »

jacobian wrote: post #10
oellegaard wrote: post #4

Living in a free, democratic and gender-equal country, I have a hard time understanding how programming languages (their organizations, such as PSF) should play an active role in political issues. If sexual harassment are not covered by local laws, maybe residents in this country should invest some time pushing that through.

> Living in a [...] gender-equal country [...] Which country is that?

Denmark.

The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#15

Post by theorique »

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #6
HarryHirsch wrote: post #3

The veteran cynic in me asks who benefits from this action. After all, the behavior that the code of conduct seeks to get on top of is unacceptable in any environment anyway. Yon don't change bad organizational culture with paperwork, you do it with enforcement of standards.

The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce. Actually, I'm not even sure that "enforcement" is all that relevant. It's more about articulating the norms of behavior so that people can learn from them and grow.

The first step is to establish a shared understanding of what is acceptable (i.e. code of conduct). Without that code of conduct, there's nothing to enforce.

Bingo. Furthermore, any of the stuff in the CoC seems pretty reasonable - don't express prejudice, don't harass people. It's really "Social Graces 101" level stuff, not some bid to constrain free speech.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#16

Post by jnoller »

oellegaard wrote: post #11
ahelwer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.

Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.

You may have skipping reading all the details. Some of which include that local law enforcement may become involved at any point. This can be requested by the accuser, the conference staff - or even the accused should evidence be in dispute[1].

The actions of conference staff are a route for dispute resolution for things that may not warrant law enforcement involvement, and if law enforcement should be involved, it will be and will obviously supersede any decisions by staff. More importantly however, is that law enforcement involvement is painful, potentially ruinous, and does not take into account the actual conference nor its other attendees.

Hypothetical: corroborated harassment incident; law enforcement is called in at the request of the accused/accuser. Action is taken. This does not remove the harasser from the site, nor does it trigger further sanctions against him or her within the community or conference unless such a set of explicit rules is codified.

[1] https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i...

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#17

Post by jnoller »

oellegaard wrote: post #12
jnoller wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I explained why the foundation should take an active role here: http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct - read the whole thing, especially the points about sponsorship and branding.

I did read the whole thing before writing my original reply. I see why you need to do it for PyCon, but I can't see why you need to demand it for the things you sponsor in PSF.

We need it for conferences we sponsor just as other sponsors require it from PyCon. Requiring it from conferences taking our money, our logo and our name (nee: endorsement) means that protections are in place for our investment and community

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#19

Post by mjg59 »

oellegaard wrote: post #11
ahelwer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people travel from around the country and world for conferences, the legal route is a nightmare. Moreso than normal.

Sure, but keep in mind that people paid to attend this conference, they need proper legal protection against claims. Let's say I go to a conference and someone claims that I did harass them sexually, it would be up to a few local programmers to decide what is the truth and not. That is not OK.

You have exactly the same legal protection you had in the past. Conferences are private events, and conference organisers have always asserted the right to exclude attendees for any reason.

Re: Python Software Foundation will require code of conduct at all sponsored events

#20

Post by mjg59 »

oellegaard wrote: post #14
jacobian wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Living in a [...] gender-equal country [...] Which country is that?

Denmark. The Law of Equality: https://www.retsinformation.dk/forms/r0710.aspx?id=20929 (could not get google translate to work)

Murder's also illegal in Denmark. Does that mean no murders occur?
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