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A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

adewynter.github.io

11–20 of 46 posts

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#11
post #8

The actual paper is linked above, and of course it’s bad. The gates are awesome ofc, but the paper’s philosophy is arrogant and uninformed (sorry Mr. Wynter!). And that’s what this is — including a video game example in your philosophy paper doesn’t make it a CS paper! Basically it uses the cool gates alongside vacuous statements like this… Hence, the purported anthropomorphic attributes of LLMs are empirically non-u…

> disguise the underlying dogma, which serves as an unsupported conclusion: humans are assumed to be completely entirely unique in every way whatsoever

Is that the argument the paper is making? In my reading they seem to primarily be making the point that assigning anthropomorphic concepts to LLM is dangerously misleading, and more importantly, not needed to properly study and evaluate LLMs.

I don’t think you have to make the assumption that humans are unique for that argument to hold up. I would argue that really it’s a comment on how loose and poorly defined all anthropomorphic attributes are. At the end of the day we have to make the assumption that other humans feel and experience broadly the same mental activity as each other, because we’ll never directly experience anyone else conscience, we can only experience our own.

We can barely link our own mental experiences to concrete empirical measurements. The vast majority of the measurements we make are entirely self-reported, and we simply assume strong correlation between self-reported measurements and the individuals actual experiences. We also have to assume that somehow all of our self-reported measurements are “calibrated” to some reasonable degree. Even measuring anthropomorphic properties in humans is pretty fuzzy and inaccurate, the only reason accept such poor data is because it’s the best we’ve got, and there enough signal in there for us to develop useful tools like talking therapy, physiological profiles, mental health scores etc which have some level of predictive and healing power when applied to _humans_.

It’s honestly amazing that what we have works for measuring and predicting humans, and we only know that works through decades of empirical measurement and study. But to then try and directly apply that fuzzy mess to a completely different system, and just assume the same level of predictive power, strikes me as kinda crazy. It requires huge assumptions, which effectively can never be tested (because even the human mind is a total mystery to us), to be made, and if we can study these systems without making those assumptions, then why make the assumptions at all?

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#12

From the judge prompt in the paper: > Papers asking whether LLMs have such properties are assuming them (e.g., ‘Do LLMs have musical talent’, ‘Do LLMs present empathy’, etc). This seems like...a very bad definition of "assuming" something? If I ask "do you know how to play the guitar?" I am absolutely not assuming that you know how to play the guitar!

You're still assuming the person is capable of playing the guitar.

Does your fridge play the banjo? Doesn't make sense does it?

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#13
post #4

Age of Empires II had a creative map editor, where you could "program" via triggers and effects. It wasn't as in depth as the blizzard games which you could write code, but was easier to use. You could make a trigger (ie. units in this area, time passed, number of units on the field, build a building, etc) then effect (ie spawn unit, move unit, kill something, etc). Which was used in custom maps to do all sorts of fu…

The latest Definitive Edition of the game actually allows writing code using Ensemble Studios' original scripting language, XS. There are some great docs on it here: https://ugc.aoe2.rocks/general/xs/

The scripting functionalities, such as built-in functions, are still getting expanded with most major updates.

There is also a python-based tool for creating and editing scenarios and triggers via python scripts called AoE2ScenarioParser - and a lot of people are using it as well!

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#16

From the judge prompt in the paper: > Papers asking whether LLMs have such properties are assuming them (e.g., ‘Do LLMs have musical talent’, ‘Do LLMs present empathy’, etc). This seems like...a very bad definition of "assuming" something? If I ask "do you know how to play the guitar?" I am absolutely not assuming that you know how to play the guitar!

You're still assuming the person is capable of playing the guitar. Does your fridge play the banjo? Doesn't make sense does it?

Yes, asking the question does assumes that the answer could be yes. It also assumes that the answer could be no. This is exactly the kind of scientific approach the paper claims we should take. So it's certainly a bit odd that the analysis approach the paper uses for its literature review---to claim that 57% of papers reviewed assume LLMs have anthropomorphic attributes---has "asks whether an LLM has an anthropomorphic attribute" as one of its criteria for concluding "assumes LLMs have anthropomorphic attributes."

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#17
As far as I can tell, the actual argument in the paper is that an LLM instantiated in AoE II would (a) be very slow, (b) maybe not actually input or output text, and (c) just generally look silly. Therefore observers would not naturally ascribe anthropomorphic characteristics to it. But you don't need the Turing-complete embedding for this argument. You can run inference as slowly as you like and detach the tokenizer. Show some silly representation of the internal computations. Now it's just a cute art project producing sequences of numbers. No human characteristics there!

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#18
post #13
post #4

Age of Empires II had a creative map editor, where you could "program" via triggers and effects. It wasn't as in depth as the blizzard games which you could write code, but was easier to use. You could make a trigger (ie. units in this area, time passed, number of units on the field, build a building, etc) then effect (ie spawn unit, move unit, kill something, etc). Which was used in custom maps to do all sorts of fu…

The latest Definitive Edition of the game actually allows writing code using Ensemble Studios' original scripting language, XS. There are some great docs on it here: https://ugc.aoe2.rocks/general/xs/ The scripting functionalities, such as built-in functions, are still getting expanded with most major updates. There is also a python-based tool for creating and editing scenarios and triggers via python scripts called…

Back in the day, I had so much fun making Red Alert 2 and Age of Empires 2 maps. The whole GUI based triggers/conditions were so frustrating though!

So, I think you just made me lose my weekend.

Re: A Perceptron in Age of Empires II

#20

> In-game constructions of NAND gates and a perceptron (forward prop and training) as described in in 'If LLMs Have Human-Like Attributes, Then So Does Age of Empires II'. Interesting concept > We begin by proving that Age of Empires II is functionally- and Turing- complete. Then we build a perceptron and a circuit to train it in-game. With that, we argue that changing the substrate (representation) of an LLM also al…

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