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'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

fastcompany.com

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Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#11

Post by PaulHoule »

mmcclure wrote: post #9
tancop wrote: post #5

great news if this moves forward. while we at it lets ban ghosting applicants and make companies give a direct rejection email with a reason, it can be as simple as "not qualified" or "we found a better candidate, try again next time". waiting for answers that never come is always the worst part.

The policies around blanket ambiguity for rejections is to avoid any kind of messaging that could lead to potential legal retaliation. Frustrating, absolutely, but most employers just aren't willing to flirt with the risk.

Also a lot of companies don't want to close off the option. It is amazing how you occasionally hear back long afterwards after they fail to hire the applicants that they wanted more than you.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#12

Post by PaulHoule »

bsimpson wrote: post #4

> or they might be legally obligated to post a job publicly, even if they’ve already identified the person they want to hire Famous/obvious bug in the H1B process, but not sure how this legislation would address it. If they're legally obligated to post the role, won't they just say "we'll fill this job "?

At my Uni I have been both the beneficiary and victim of this sort of thing.

I've been to interviews where I was there just to prove they did interviews and I also spent half a year working the politics to create a job for myself.

I have a friend who is loved by her coworkers (and myself) who we'd all like to see get a promotion but they may be obligated to do a national search. Stuff like that happens all the time.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#14

Post by mancerayder »

How do you enforce that?

I don't even know what I applied to that's a ghost and what isn't. Maybe I'm completely clueless, but there's no difference: recruiters ghost, sometimes companies ghost and sometimes they reply, sometimes you get an F U letter, you're not good enough, sometimes not.

How did people even find out ghost jobs existed? I feel like the swindle must not be new.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#15

Post by [deleted] »

tancop wrote: post #5

great news if this moves forward. while we at it lets ban ghosting applicants and make companies give a direct rejection email with a reason, it can be as simple as "not qualified" or "we found a better candidate, try again next time". waiting for answers that never come is always the worst part.

[deleted]

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#16

Post by chaosharmonic »

mmcclure wrote: post #9
tancop wrote: post #5

great news if this moves forward. while we at it lets ban ghosting applicants and make companies give a direct rejection email with a reason, it can be as simple as "not qualified" or "we found a better candidate, try again next time". waiting for answers that never come is always the worst part.

The policies around blanket ambiguity for rejections is to avoid any kind of messaging that could lead to potential legal retaliation. Frustrating, absolutely, but most employers just aren't willing to flirt with the risk.

I've landed on a similar hot take after one job offer got rescinded by a company that refused to give a reason, to anyone involved, and then wouldn't honor records requests. (But would send me a candidate survey.)

With any job, it would be one thing if it were at the applicant stage, and I hadn't talked to a person at any point. But with this one, there was an offer in front of me and there was no one at all who had both the capacity and the willingness to explain what had just happened.

If I started the job and they pulled this on day three, they would have to give a reason to an unemployment office.

I don't care how little inclination businesses have to tell the truth. Make them commit to the lie, in writing, somewhere that it actually costs something.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#17

Post by sellmesoap »

tancop wrote: post #5

great news if this moves forward. while we at it lets ban ghosting applicants and make companies give a direct rejection email with a reason, it can be as simple as "not qualified" or "we found a better candidate, try again next time". waiting for answers that never come is always the worst part.

Passive aggressive behavior around hiring and HR is a big reason I prefer self employment, I ununderstand some of the CYA reasons but I always find it yucky in the extreme.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#18

Post by wps »

In the same way that credit card companies are required to tell you the exact reasons your score has changed, companies should be required to give at least any sort of notice of rejection. Something as simple as: we have proceeded with another candidate (if and only if the role was actually filled). I know this opens up a lot of questions about enforcement and employer discrimination, but something has to be done.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#19

Post by chaosharmonic »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6
mcmcmc wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like it could be easily circumvented by just continually pushing the “fill by” date back on a posting

Have to start somewhere. Update the law as bad actors operate. Observe, iterate, etc. Failure is not trying, or when you stop attempting to improve. Trying is table stakes. "Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome." We are aligning incentives, with policy, to encourage desired outcomes.

I'm not sure the incentive here is strong enough. For a specific profile they want, at $2500 for every 30 days, I could see businesses just paying that fine as an operational cost.

The incentive also exists, for the kinds of employers who would post ghost jobs, to also force in-person work again. You don't have to pay these fines to multiple states on one ghost job if the job is only available in one location.

Re: 'Ghost jobs' could soon be illegal in New York

#20

Post by EGreg »

As a libertarian, I am okay with laws that allow people to sue for fraudulent or intentionally very misleading statements, especially ones made publicly and impose compounding costs on a lot of people. This is public harm. The laws are protections for regular people, in this case people who are looking for jobs. I'm also okay with Pigovian Taxes for the same reason: forcing actors who externalize costs to the public, to internalize those costs.

Laws are frameworks. My brand of libertarianism is "decentralizing concentrations of power" and "giving people the software tools to self-organize". But in the meantime, yeah, if there would be laws for anything, it would be this kind of stuff. It is why I can get behind Intellectual Property for Trademarks, before I get behind Copyrights and Patents. Trademarks are about making sure actors don't misrepresent who they are and appropriate the brand of other actors. I think many libertarians would come to support Trademark enforcement laws if they were presented that way.

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