Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

politico.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 64 posts

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#11

Post by watwut »

barbazoo wrote: post #9
watwut wrote: post #6

It is actually a good idea.

I see no path where this would be a good idea unless you want to create a group where everyone thinks the same. If Hungary is a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy then either they have to focus their attention on improving living conditions there so people realize the value of their alliance (if that's the purpose, improving living conditions) or realize that Hungary isn't a good fit for this type of alliance a…

First, Hungary is not a "a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy". They are just not fully democratic country anymore, full stop. The system there did not changed, judiciary, media and the rest of the country are as much in the hands of a leader and easy to be abused as yesterday. The person on top of it changed. He did promised reforms, it remains to be seen whether they happen or not.

But second, regardless of Hungary, anyone can veto is dysfunctional system.

> unless you want to create a group where everyone thinks the same.

Everyone has veto is literally a system where everyone must think the same, else nothing will happen.

> Removing veto power probably makes it more likely that the next Orban pulls them out of the EU entirely which might not be in the interest of the alliance.

That would be bad for Hungary, but good for the rest of Europe. Hungary presence in EU was damaging to EU for years now.

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#13

Post by atoav »

nickysielicki wrote: post #5

> Orbán, the EU’s most autocratic leader […] lost by a decisive margin in Sunday’s vote, amid the highest turnout in Hungary’s democratic history. What a ridiculous sentence. He’s an autocrat, but he’s out of power after losing a democratic election. Which is it? Words have meaning.

Yes they do. A kindergardener can lead their kindergarden in an autocratic style. That means they (=auto) decide (=cratos) things and don't e.g. ask others (=demos) in a democratic sense.

Then they can still end up being fired. Autocratic is a style of leadership, and nowhere in the definition does it say autocrats can't be removed from their position of power. Sure, it is hard to remove autocrats once they have consolidated power, but that doesn't mean they are not autocrats before they did.

Whst you do is like calling a fire only a fire if it burns down a house. But that would be too late you know?

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#14

Post by redeeman »

watwut wrote: post #11
barbazoo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no path where this would be a good idea unless you want to create a group where everyone thinks the same. If Hungary is a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy then either they have to focus their attention on improving living conditions there so people realize the value of their alliance (if that's the purpose, improving living conditions) or realize that Hungary isn't a good fit for this type of alliance a…

First, Hungary is not a "a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy". They are just not fully democratic country anymore, full stop. The system there did not changed, judiciary, media and the rest of the country are as much in the hands of a leader and easy to be abused as yesterday. The person on top of it changed. He did promised reforms, it remains to be seen whether they happen or not. But second, regardless of H…

> Everyone has veto is literally a system where everyone must think the same, else nothing will happen.

thats not true, it just means that everone must not be extremely opposed to something for it to happen.

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#15

Post by redeeman »

watwut wrote: post #7
nickysielicki wrote: post #5

> Orbán, the EU’s most autocratic leader […] lost by a decisive margin in Sunday’s vote, amid the highest turnout in Hungary’s democratic history. What a ridiculous sentence. He’s an autocrat, but he’s out of power after losing a democratic election. Which is it? Words have meaning.

It was election, but Hungarian democracy is severely lacking and barely a democracy. A miracle happened, because too many people were too pissed at Orban. That does not make the country non autocratic, it means miracle happened and now new guys has all that power.

haha, a miracle happened, people voted someone out, but its NOT a democracy.

why is it so needed to try paint it as not a democracy when it has CLEARLY proven that it is such

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#16

Post by watwut »

redeeman wrote: post #15
watwut wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was election, but Hungarian democracy is severely lacking and barely a democracy. A miracle happened, because too many people were too pissed at Orban. That does not make the country non autocratic, it means miracle happened and now new guys has all that power.

haha, a miracle happened, people voted someone out, but its NOT a democracy. why is it so needed to try paint it as not a democracy when it has CLEARLY proven that it is such

Mostly because I know more about Hungarian system then you. It is was not clearly proven as such. The system is still heavily favoring one party. Just because you can flip who is on top of all stars align and 80% of voters come in mostly does not make it functional democracy worth the name. Orban was able to stay in power so long, because anything less then that would mean he gets all that power again. Opposition media and parties in the country were destroyed long time ago. Judiciary is routinely abused.

Simple as that. Yes, it was pro-democracy, anti-Russia, pro-EU vote. That does not mean Hungary changed over time. It means it has one last chance at reform. If it does not reform, there will be no way to flip it in elections the next time.

And yes, American conservative fans of Orban know all of that - Rubio, Vance, Rod Dreher, Peterson. They loved and admired the arrangement and want to emulate it.

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#17

Post by watwut »

redeeman wrote: post #14
watwut wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, Hungary is not a "a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy". They are just not fully democratic country anymore, full stop. The system there did not changed, judiciary, media and the rest of the country are as much in the hands of a leader and easy to be abused as yesterday. The person on top of it changed. He did promised reforms, it remains to be seen whether they happen or not. But second, regardless of H…

> Everyone has veto is literally a system where everyone must think the same, else nothing will happen. thats not true, it just means that everone must not be extremely opposed to something for it to happen.

No, it means anyone can make any decision hostage. They do not need to be extremely opposed. They just need to slightly not want it.

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#18

Post by solaarphunk »

Brussels appears to be extremely tone deaf to the basic needs of ordinary people, and taking further steps in a direction to centralize power is just going to push more people to the far right.

For example, the fact that right-wing governments in central and eastern Europe are protecting their borders, represents a very popular perspective, apparently shared by very few in the EU governing body.

Consolidating power at a moment when many EU policies are clearly unpopular seems like it will have unintended consequences.

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#19

Post by dh2022 »

watwut wrote: post #17
redeeman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone has veto is literally a system where everyone must think the same, else nothing will happen. thats not true, it just means that everone must not be extremely opposed to something for it to happen.

No, it means anyone can make any decision hostage. They do not need to be extremely opposed. They just need to slightly not want it.

This is a very simplistic view. There are benefits to approving things one dislikes slightly: like being able to influence decisions which are personally important. Rejecting things you disagree a bit with just because you can leads to being ignored. Like for example Orban - did anyone in the EU take this guy seriously in the past few years? EU more or less talked over his head (and the head of Slovakia as well)

Re: Von der Leyen uses Orbán defeat to push for end of veto in EU foreign policy

#20

Post by _zoltan_ »

watwut wrote: post #11
barbazoo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no path where this would be a good idea unless you want to create a group where everyone thinks the same. If Hungary is a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy then either they have to focus their attention on improving living conditions there so people realize the value of their alliance (if that's the purpose, improving living conditions) or realize that Hungary isn't a good fit for this type of alliance a…

First, Hungary is not a "a bit of a flip flop in terms of democracy". They are just not fully democratic country anymore, full stop. The system there did not changed, judiciary, media and the rest of the country are as much in the hands of a leader and easy to be abused as yesterday. The person on top of it changed. He did promised reforms, it remains to be seen whether they happen or not. But second, regardless of H…

We are fully democratic as shown by outing Orban last night.

Doesn't mean we should just blindly vote with the herd.

Post reply on HN