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WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

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Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#11

Post by acedTrex »

john_strinlai wrote: post #7
anonymous908213 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incompetence is always more likely than malice. "Incompetence" of this degree is malice . It is actively malicious to create a system that automatically locks people out of their accounts with absolutely no possibility for human review or recourse short of getting traction in the media. "No sir, I didn't grind those orphans up. It was this orphan grinding machine I made that did it, teehee!"

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

And the person you are responding is asserting that the response to incompetence of this level should be the SAME as if it directed and intentional malice. Which is a completely valid way to view a fuckup like this.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#12

Post by c0l0 »

As a wireguard user myself (even on the lone Windows machine that I still begrundingly have), I am happy that this problem could have been resolved. I am just wondering - if there had not been this kind of public outcry and outrage that Mr. Donenfeld discounts in his announcement message, would the issue have been fixed by now?

What are individual developers of "lesser" (less important, less visible, less used) software with a Windows presence to do? Wait and pray for Goliath to make the first benevolent move, like all the folks who got locked out forever from their Google accounts on a whim? Ha!

The fact of the matter is, the code signing requirements on Windows are a serious threat to Free and Open Source Software on the platform. Code signing requirements are a threat to FOSS on all platforms that support this technique, and infinitely more so where it's effectively mandatory. I firmly believe that these days, THIS is the preferred angle/vector for Microsoft to kill the software variety their C-levels once publicly bad-mouthed as "cancer", and zx2c4 is one of the poor frogs being slowly boiled alive. Just not this time - yet.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#13

Post by bronson »

john_strinlai wrote: post #7
anonymous908213 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incompetence is always more likely than malice. "Incompetence" of this degree is malice . It is actively malicious to create a system that automatically locks people out of their accounts with absolutely no possibility for human review or recourse short of getting traction in the media. "No sir, I didn't grind those orphans up. It was this orphan grinding machine I made that did it, teehee!"

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

And I'm positive that you understand the spirit of the post you're replying to.

The saying implies that incompetence and malice are polar opposites. They're not.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#14

Post by r14c »

john_strinlai wrote: post #7
anonymous908213 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incompetence is always more likely than malice. "Incompetence" of this degree is malice . It is actively malicious to create a system that automatically locks people out of their accounts with absolutely no possibility for human review or recourse short of getting traction in the media. "No sir, I didn't grind those orphans up. It was this orphan grinding machine I made that did it, teehee!"

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

I mean, sure, but at a certain point negligent incompetence is directly harmful and the motives or lack thereof are just context.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#15

Post by john_strinlai »

bronson wrote: post #13
john_strinlai wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

And I'm positive that you understand the spirit of the post you're replying to. The saying implies that incompetence and malice are polar opposites. They're not.

>The saying implies that incompetence and malice are polar opposites.

it does not

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#16

Post by wtallis »

john_strinlai wrote: post #7
anonymous908213 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incompetence is always more likely than malice. "Incompetence" of this degree is malice . It is actively malicious to create a system that automatically locks people out of their accounts with absolutely no possibility for human review or recourse short of getting traction in the media. "No sir, I didn't grind those orphans up. It was this orphan grinding machine I made that did it, teehee!"

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

Microsoft's incompetence is certainly reckless at a minimum, and often manifests in ways that come across as misanthropic toward their users. They don't really fit the pattern of mere bumbling fools.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#17

Post by john_strinlai »

r14c wrote: post #14
john_strinlai wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

I mean, sure, but at a certain point negligent incompetence is directly harmful and the motives or lack thereof are just context.

"just context" is important.

i get that everyone has a frothing-at-the-mouth extreme hatred to microsoft and its employees. but microsoft did not say "fuck jason, fuck wireguard, lets try and shut that down". that would be a way different story.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#19

Post by john_strinlai »

wtallis wrote: post #16
john_strinlai wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

Microsoft's incompetence is certainly reckless at a minimum, and often manifests in ways that come across as misanthropic toward their users. They don't really fit the pattern of mere bumbling fools.

sure!

my point was that it wasnt a deliberate conspiracy/attack to fuck over wireguard, which would be an absolutely crazy story if it were true.

Re: WireGuard makes new Windows release following Microsoft signing resolution

#20

Post by john_strinlai »

acedTrex wrote: post #11
john_strinlai wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am positive that you understand the spirit of what that saying means. incompetence is always more likely than [intentional, directed] malice. microsoft employees did not deliberately attack the wireguard project with a goal of taking it down for whatever grand scheme people's hatred cooks up. if you have evidence that microsoft did this deliberately to ruin the wireguard project, please forward it along to jason (t…

And the person you are responding is asserting that the response to incompetence of this level should be the SAME as if it directed and intentional malice. Which is a completely valid way to view a fuckup like this.

>response to incompetence of this level should be the SAME

sure.

but this was not a deliberate attack by microsoft employees to shutdown wireguard. that is what i was trying to say and the essence of the quote in question.

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