Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus • Hacker News Board

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#11

Post by addaon » Sat, Apr 11, 2026, 7:02 PM UTC

aap_ wrote: post #2

So is there any way to actually read it? Or do i have to buy an obscure french book? can you even buy the book? Academic publishing/gatekeeping is such a joke.

This feels like a knee-jerk reaction. While it may be a relevant critique of some news releases about academic research… this one literally contains a thumbnail with a link to a sufficiently-high-resolution image of the document. You can read it by clicking on the only image in the article.

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#12

Post by sapphicsnail » Sat, Apr 11, 2026, 9:31 PM UTC

amelung wrote: post #9

I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below e…

Papyrologists are amazing. It takes a ton of training to be able to make sense of all those fragments.

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#13

Post by sapphicsnail » Sat, Apr 11, 2026, 9:33 PM UTC

marginalia_nu wrote: post #8

aap_ wrote: post #2

So is there any way to actually read it? Or do i have to buy an obscure french book? can you even buy the book? Academic publishing/gatekeeping is such a joke.

It's in the picture, I presume. Just gotta brush up on that Koine Greek. Or if you read Egyptian hieroglyphs already, you can use the Rosetta Stone to reconstruct the Koine Greek from first principles.

It's not Koine and it's in verse.

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#14

Post by sapphicsnail » Sat, Apr 11, 2026, 9:38 PM UTC

Empedocles wrote in verse. Greek scientific writings used to be written entirely in verse instead of prose. He wrote in Latin, but a cool example of something like this that survived is Lucretius' On the Nature of things (De Rerum Natura).

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#15

Post by georgearvanitis » Sun, Apr 12, 2026, 1:07 AM UTC

amelung wrote: post #9

I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below e…

ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#16

Post by jdnier » Sun, Apr 12, 2026, 2:16 AM UTC

georgearvanitis wrote: post #15

amelung wrote: post #9

I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below e…

ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …

Not understanding Greek, I ran that through Google Translate (Greek -> English) just to see what it might say.

> AND THIS … THE MAJOR … BUT THE BOTH … ARE MEANING … PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS.. OBVIOUS.. SPECTRA … OF SONGS SO … MAJOR … AND THEREFORE … NOT EVEN EARS .. NO LANGUAGE

What form of Greek would that be? (I don't know much more than "ancient Greek" vs "modern Greek".)

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#17

Post by jdnier » Sun, Apr 12, 2026, 2:30 AM UTC

jdnier wrote: post #16

georgearvanitis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …

Not understanding Greek, I ran that through Google Translate (Greek -> English) just to see what it might say. > AND THIS … THE MAJOR … BUT THE BOTH … ARE MEANING … PEUSIS PAN GAR SEEMS.. OBVIOUS.. SPECTRA … OF SONGS SO … MAJOR … AND THEREFORE … NOT EVEN EARS .. NO LANGUAGE What form of Greek would that be? (I don't know much more than "ancient Greek" vs "modern Greek".)

Looking more carefully at the original image (http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/04/Emp...) I can see the mapping of letterforms you made. Thanks for that!

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#18

Post by aap_ » Sun, Apr 12, 2026, 7:58 AM UTC

amelung wrote: post #9

I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below e…

Ah, you're right. "30 verses" made it sound like more than what you can see on that image. Luckily most of the papyrus is very legible! even if fragmented...

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#19

Post by pseudohadamard » Sun, Apr 12, 2026, 9:52 AM UTC

georgearvanitis wrote: post #15

amelung wrote: post #9

I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below e…

ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …

I dunno, it's all Greek to me.

(I'll see myself out).

Re: Previously unknown verses by Empedocles found on papyrus

#20

Post by amelung » Sun, Apr 12, 2026, 1:59 PM UTC

georgearvanitis wrote: post #15

amelung wrote: post #9

I think the image shown at the top right is the entire text that was discovered: because if you count all the lines (including even the ones where no mortal can see actual letters), you get 30. I admire the experts who can make sense out of it. Words are not separated by blanks. The first line in the second column may start with «ΚΑΙΤΟΙ ΠΩ…» ‹and yet wh…›. Below that perhaps «Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ …» ‹or greater›. Further below e…

ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ … Η ΜΕΙΖΟΝ… ΑΛΛΑ ΤΑ Δ ΑΜΦΟΤΕ… ΔΗΛΟΥΤΑΙ… ΠΕΥΣΗ ΠΑΝ ΓΑΡ ΦΑΙΝΕΤΑΙ.. ΚΟΙΛΑ.. ΦΑΣΜΑΤΑ … ΓΥΙΩΝ ΟΣΣΟΝ … ΜΕΙΖΟΝΑ … ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ … ΟΥΤΕ ΩΤΑ .. ΟΥΔΑΝ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ …

Respect! even if I can't agree with every detail, e.g. «ΚΑΙ ΤΟΥΤΩ» would require the «Υ» and the «Τ» to be quite different from the «Υ»s and «Τ»s in clearer cases, e.g. in the «ΚΑΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΥΤΟΥ» we both read as such. So I would stick to «ΚΑΙΤΟΙΠΩ…».