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EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk

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Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#11

Post by lores »

pllbnk wrote: post #9
lores wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling people's preference for their own language "stubborn" is a puzzlingly entitled take. Do you expect every country in Europe to change their language to English? If not, how do you propose immigrants be fully functional in a country without speaking the local language?

Well, let's take the Netherlands or Scandinavian countries as example. Their languages are alive and well, yet temporary work immigrants can live fully functional lives with speaking only English. Europe will be held back economically as long as there are communication obstacles. Anecdotally, English is the only foreign language I know well enough to communicate fluently. Suppose I received a job offer from Germany a…

I'm glad you bring that example, because I was in fact an immigrant in the Netherlands for several years. Do people speak English? Many do. Will they speak English by default? No. They are obviously more comfortable in Dutch than they are in English, and anything not directly addressed to me was said in Dutch, at work and with local friends. Many people do, in fact, not speak enough English to communicate effectively. Official documents are in Dutch. That made not knowing Dutch very difficult.

I didn't think it was them being stubborn, just me being ignorant, because I don't think I am the center of the universe. Yes, am immigrant to Germany should absolutely learn German. Countries and their people are not the backdrop for someone's main character complex.

Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#12

Post by lores »

bogdan wrote: post #6
lores wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling people's preference for their own language "stubborn" is a puzzlingly entitled take. Do you expect every country in Europe to change their language to English? If not, how do you propose immigrants be fully functional in a country without speaking the local language?

Entirely agree with you but... Europe not having a common language is one of the things that holds it back from being a stronger competitor against the US and CN. It's just one of the myriad of other things holding EU back.

Holding the EU back from the role models of two fascistic societies is an excellent thing.

Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#13

Post by pllbnk »

lores wrote: post #11
pllbnk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's take the Netherlands or Scandinavian countries as example. Their languages are alive and well, yet temporary work immigrants can live fully functional lives with speaking only English. Europe will be held back economically as long as there are communication obstacles. Anecdotally, English is the only foreign language I know well enough to communicate fluently. Suppose I received a job offer from Germany a…

I'm glad you bring that example, because I was in fact an immigrant in the Netherlands for several years. Do people speak English? Many do. Will they speak English by default? No. They are obviously more comfortable in Dutch than they are in English, and anything not directly addressed to me was said in Dutch, at work and with local friends. Many people do, in fact, not speak enough English to communicate effectively…

Most of the time for bureaucratic legalese you would need a local specialist either way, even if the documents were written in English because you need to know local laws (or where to look them up) also. Going back to the Netherlands example, I think that's a totally reasonable behavior on their part, yet never has been an issue to me not knowing Dutch, nor has been an issue to me not knowing Danish in Denmark. But for regular daily activities - Uber, restaurant, healthcare - communication is fluent and that's what matters for those living there temporary.

Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#14

Post by bogdan »

lores wrote: post #12
bogdan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entirely agree with you but... Europe not having a common language is one of the things that holds it back from being a stronger competitor against the US and CN. It's just one of the myriad of other things holding EU back.

Holding the EU back from the role models of two fascistic societies is an excellent thing.

Fantastic! I propose we should have a common language, you conclude it must be because of fascism. Brilliant take.

Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#15

Post by lores »

bogdan wrote: post #14
lores wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holding the EU back from the role models of two fascistic societies is an excellent thing.

Fantastic! I propose we should have a common language, you conclude it must be because of fascism. Brilliant take.

I was referring to the myriad of things.

Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#16

Post by seba_dos1 »

pllbnk wrote: post #10
mytailorisrich wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is useless to think that we always " have to compete " head to head. We don't have to be bigger than the bull. Frankly the argument is mostly a way to justify EU federalisation and the death of individual countries and cultures for the sake of "uniformisation" like if that was something unavoidable.

I agree that competition between peoples is counterproductive. But this is the world we live in. I also think that in large part international competition is pushed by the US as part of their culture and because they are the leading world power. In this world order, Europeans should be able to sit at the table as equals with other major powers. Also, why does federalization have to mean the death of cultures? Can't w…

> because they are the leading world power

Since this has now started to slowly change, it's probably not a very good idea to pay too much attention to what they're culturally pushing anymore.

Re: EU Migration to and from the UK (Since Brexit)

#17

Post by pllbnk »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #16
pllbnk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that competition between peoples is counterproductive. But this is the world we live in. I also think that in large part international competition is pushed by the US as part of their culture and because they are the leading world power. In this world order, Europeans should be able to sit at the table as equals with other major powers. Also, why does federalization have to mean the death of cultures? Can't w…

> because they are the leading world power Since this has now started to slowly change, it's probably not a very good idea to pay too much attention to what they're culturally pushing anymore.

It is changing slowly, but the dynamics is so complex that it might as well reverse its course. In the mean time they are still dominating and will probably continue to do so over the coming decades (so for a generation or two more).
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