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Stop telling people to vote

jwz.org

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Re: Stop telling people to vote

#11

Post by raganwald »

josnyder wrote: post #4

jwz's thesis, that uninformed people shouldn't vote, is overwhelmingly correct. I consider myself to be well-informed, politically speaking. Yet I voted in only 7 of 17 races on my ballot. I am not, for example, equipped to make informed choices for my jurisdiction's school board. All ballots should come with a "No vote" option. What would the difference be from just leaving it blank? Nothing, except that it would gi…

jwz's thesis, that uninformed people shouldn't vote, is overwhelmingly correct

I rephrase that as "It is not good to have uninformed people voting." There are two ways to fix that: One is to work on the word "voting," the other is to work on the word "uninformed."

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#12

Post by jacques_chester »

geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

> When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it.

I'm Australian.

Compulsory voting does no such thing. Australians begrudge voting (and that we must fully enumerate our preferences).

The pragmatic reason for having compulsory voting is to provide a better sample of what the population wants. In effect, to dilute the crazies.

Voluntary voting is dominated by the question of motivation and ability. Those who are motivated and easily able to vote set the agenda.

Ever wondered why US politics is dominated by so many basically tangential issues?

Because whether you are pro or contra, abortion / marijuana / the death penalty / public health etc are classic issues to Get Out The vote.

And the consequences continue.

Ever wondered why US politics is about soaring rhetoric and heart-crushing negativity?

Because the basic strategy is: inspire your own voters so they turn out ("Yes we can!", "America is at a crossroads") and make the other guy's voters disillusioned enough so that, while they won't vote for you, they'll just stay at home.

Australian politics is more about transactional than transcendental issues, simply because the great bulk of people are required to vote whether they want to or not.

To summarise: it does not greatly improve the quality of voters. It improves the quality of outcomes.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#13

Post by zerostar07 »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

> When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. I'm Australian. Compulsory voting does no such thing. Australians begrudge voting (and that we must fully enumerate our preferences). The pragmatic reason for having compulsory voting is to provide a better sample of what the population wants. In…

Well put. Lets not forget the relevant science: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16206336

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#14

Post by [deleted] »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

> When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. I'm Australian. Compulsory voting does no such thing. Australians begrudge voting (and that we must fully enumerate our preferences). The pragmatic reason for having compulsory voting is to provide a better sample of what the population wants. In…

[deleted]

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#15

Post by [deleted] »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

> When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. I'm Australian. Compulsory voting does no such thing. Australians begrudge voting (and that we must fully enumerate our preferences). The pragmatic reason for having compulsory voting is to provide a better sample of what the population wants. In…

[deleted]

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#16

Post by geuis »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
geuis wrote: post #9

I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint to this. Everyone should be required to vote. In Australia, among other nations, if you don't vote you pay a fine. Voting in the U.S. should be as mandatory as jury duty, if not more so. When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. There's this view in…

> When you are required to do something, and when all of your peers, family, and friends are required to do the same thing, it generates a much greater discussion around it. I'm Australian. Compulsory voting does no such thing. Australians begrudge voting (and that we must fully enumerate our preferences). The pragmatic reason for having compulsory voting is to provide a better sample of what the population wants. In…

Whether you begrudge it or not, the majority of Australians go to the polls when required, I assume. Generating discussion about something doesn't at all mean its something people take joy or pride in doing. That isn't a requirement in the equation.

Transactional voting is perfectly adequate. Its the minimum requirement you need to have a successful democracy. It still leaves room for the politicians that want to inspire people, or try to make them fear the other candidate, etc. But it also makes people talk about the day to day business of getting by. We sorely are lacking that here in the US.

I don't care about improving the quality of voters implicitly. That is a side effect of mandatory voting. Improving the outcome is the primary target.

Overall, I appreciate your comments and take the view that they illustrate and expand on my points, rather than refute them.

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#18

Post by libovness »

There are more sophisticated arguments than this one for not voting. Among them, even if you believe in a particular cause, you can probably accomplish more for that cause in the hours it takes to vote by doing something other than voting: http://www.artoftheory.com/the-ethics-of-voting/

Another reason: Those who are not merely voting among party lines are childish, superficial, and even reptilian, when it comes to picking candidates: http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S19/28/30C37/

Re: Stop telling people to vote

#20

Post by libovness »

There are more sophisticated arguments than this one for not voting. Among them, even if you believe in a particular cause, you can probably accomplish more for that cause in the hours it takes to vote by doing something other than voting: http://www.artoftheory.com/the-ethics-of-voting/

Another reason: Those who are not merely voting among party lines are childish, superficial, and even reptilian, when it comes to picking candidates: http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S19/28/30C37/

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