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Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

sylve.io

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Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#11

Post by arch1e »

h4ch1 wrote: post #2

Looks great! Love seeing Svelte being adopted in the wild. I've been experimenting with jails on my devserver to sandbox AI agents, going to give this a whirl.

I would've given up on this project without Svelte 5! It’s so hard to justify React after using it. Proxmox always felt sluggish, but Sylve with Svelte stays smooth even on large clusters. DX is also much better. We started on Svelte 4 but moved early to 5 for things like runes.

Jails are great if your packages are in ports, and if not, Linux jails work well too: https://sylve.io/guides/deployments/rocky-linux-jail/, Haven't hit a CLI app that doesn't run in a FreeBSD Linux jail yet!

Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#13

Post by traceroute66 »

elcritch wrote: post #6
lmz wrote: post #5

Surely that's "on" FreeBSD not "by" FreeBSD?

It’s funded by the FreeBSD foundation, so “by” fits.

> It’s funded by the FreeBSD foundation, so “by” fits.

No, it is not.

FreeBSD are listed as ONE of the three core sponsors.

The other two are commercial organisations.

The GitHub repo is not hosted by FreeBSD either, it is by one of the other sponsors, "AlchemillaHQ".

There is nothing "by" about this.

"for", sure, but "by", nope.

Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#15

Post by traceroute66 »

no_time wrote: post #14

Kind of envious of this as a Debian user. I know we have cockpit but it never really clicked for me. Functionality wise too crashy and not so nicely intergrated, design wise it has the information density of a grandparent brick phone.

> Kind of envious of this as a Debian user.

You do know Proxmox is a fancy UI on top of Debian, right ?

Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#16

Post by arch1e »

no_time wrote: post #14

Kind of envious of this as a Debian user. I know we have cockpit but it never really clicked for me. Functionality wise too crashy and not so nicely intergrated, design wise it has the information density of a grandparent brick phone.

It’s kind of funny, Debian was my distro of choice since I was 15, so about 10 years up until last year. I still envy its huge application ecosystem. But over time I’ve come to really appreciate simplicity and the principle of least astonishment.

I originally started Sylve with an OpenWRT/LFS mindset since I had a lot of experience there. But even then, Linux often feels a bit cobbled together. ZFS is awkward because of the GPL vs CDDL situation, userland and kernel development feel disconnected, and there are so many different ways to do the same thing. I won’t even get into systemd, you get the idea.

What really clicked for me was using a system where the kernel and userland are developed together. That cohesion makes a big difference. Technically, I was able to rely almost entirely on the base OS without pulling in extra dependencies, aside from libvirt to make migration easier and Samba for file sharing.

Going forward, Sylve leans into that even more. PF for the firewall, the rock solid iSCSI implementation in base, even things like smart(8) written by src committers just feel more consistent and thought through.

So yeah, Debian definitely wins on features and applications. But for me, FreeBSD wins on coherence and design.

Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#17

Post by arch1e »

traceroute66 wrote: post #15
no_time wrote: post #14

Kind of envious of this as a Debian user. I know we have cockpit but it never really clicked for me. Functionality wise too crashy and not so nicely intergrated, design wise it has the information density of a grandparent brick phone.

> Kind of envious of this as a Debian user. You do know Proxmox is a fancy UI on top of Debian, right ?

It’s not really just a fancy UI though.

The entire Sylve bundle (backend + frontend) is ~55 MB, fully self-contained, and doesn’t mess with the base system in any destructive way. You can drop it in and remove it cleanly.

Proxmox, on the other hand, replaces core parts of the system, including the kernel, and its package ecosystem diverges quite a bit from standard Debian. I’ve tried using it on a desktop before and rolling that back cleanly isn’t exactly straightforward.

At that point it’s more of a tightly coupled platform built on Debian than just “a UI on top,” especially when the underlying system is no longer behaving like Debian in the usual sense.

Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#18

Post by traceroute66 »

arch1e wrote: post #17
traceroute66 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kind of envious of this as a Debian user. You do know Proxmox is a fancy UI on top of Debian, right ?

It’s not really just a fancy UI though. The entire Sylve bundle (backend + frontend) is ~55 MB, fully self-contained, and doesn’t mess with the base system in any destructive way. You can drop it in and remove it cleanly. Proxmox, on the other hand, replaces core parts of the system, including the kernel, and its package ecosystem diverges quite a bit from standard Debian. I’ve tried using it on a desktop before and…

> I’ve tried using it on a desktop before and rolling that back cleanly isn’t exactly straightforward.

Well, sure, but Proxmox was never intended to be a desktop solution.

It was always intended as a server solution, installed on bare-metal, and therefore "rolling-back" is a re-format and re-install (or shredding the drives if the server is being decommissioned).

Re: Sylve – Proxmox Alternative by FreeBSD

#19

Post by arch1e »

traceroute66 wrote: post #18
arch1e wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really just a fancy UI though. The entire Sylve bundle (backend + frontend) is ~55 MB, fully self-contained, and doesn’t mess with the base system in any destructive way. You can drop it in and remove it cleanly. Proxmox, on the other hand, replaces core parts of the system, including the kernel, and its package ecosystem diverges quite a bit from standard Debian. I’ve tried using it on a desktop before and…

> I’ve tried using it on a desktop before and rolling that back cleanly isn’t exactly straightforward. Well, sure, but Proxmox was never intended to be a desktop solution. It was always intended as a server solution, installed on bare-metal, and therefore "rolling-back" is a re-format and re-install (or shredding the drives if the server is being decommissioned).

That’s fair, but that kind of reinforces my point.

If the expected recovery path is “wipe and reinstall,” then it’s clearly not just a thin layer on top of Debian. It’s effectively its own platform with its own assumptions, lifecycle, and upgrade path.

There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s a very different model from something that can coexist with or cleanly detach from the base system. That distinction matters depending on how people want to use it, especially outside of a dedicated bare-metal server context.

So yeah, Proxmox is built on Debian, but in practice it behaves more like a tightly integrated appliance than a simple UI sitting on top.

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