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Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

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Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#11

Post by fiftyacorn »

rockyj wrote: post #6
fiftyacorn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it saves a lot of reinventing the wheel

And at the same time, gives you a dozen of footguns. This is just a list for the gotchas in the "@Transactional" annotation - https://dev.to/closeup1202/8-spring-transactional-pitfalls-t... Now read up on all the dozen of annotations. But yeah, we did not want to "re-invent the wheel".

Im comparing against node equivalent ORMs and find spring consistently better. Yeah ive got to read up on annotations - but when it comes to transactions its always worth revisiting them to check for changes

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#14

Post by e7h4nz »

I worked on a core Spring Boot project for five or six years at a very large enterprise. In my opinion, the most dangerous thing about this framework is that it makes its core users feel far too self-assured.

When looking at problems, your mind becomes consumed with how to force everything into design patterns—like architectural separation, DI, or interface / implementation split. This causes developers to lose sight of the actual essence of the problem because they are obsessed with conforming to the framework.

Because the ecosystem and toolchain surrounding Spring Boot and Java are so mature and well-supported, it is very easy to find community tools that make you feel like you are doing things the "right way."

I only realized these issues after I left Spring Boot and Java development behind. Now, I much prefer using TypeScript or Python to write code (for example, web servers).

I also prefer using various SaaS solutions to handle authentication and user registration rather than rebuilding it all myself with Spring Boot Security. I honestly never want to go back to the days of writing Java again.

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#15

Post by __alexs »

sidcool wrote: post #12
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but enterprise software is some of the worst software you will encounter.

Not Spring Boot's fault :)

Not a strong indicator that Enterprises have good taste though is it?

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#16

Post by ecshafer »

stackskipton wrote: post #8

Ops person here who has supported Java/SpringBoot applications. I think most of dislike of Java apps comes not from language or framework BUT from fact that most Java using workspaces are filled with mediocracy. They tend to be businesses with products that have extreme moats and thus quality of software barely matters. I imagine most people who would even read this medium article are dreaming of better than that.

I 100% agree. I have seen enterprise spring applications that throw away all of the speed through huge amounts of hot path object creation, nested loops, absurd amounts of factories, etc. After going through enough AbstractFactoryFactory calls to make object in an n^3 loop, the framework doesn't matter.

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#17

Post by ecshafer »

e7h4nz wrote: post #14

I worked on a core Spring Boot project for five or six years at a very large enterprise. In my opinion, the most dangerous thing about this framework is that it makes its core users feel far too self-assured. When looking at problems, your mind becomes consumed with how to force everything into design patterns—like architectural separation, DI, or interface / implementation split. This causes developers to lose sight…

I like Java fine. I would probably prefer Ruby, Rust or LISP given the chance. But I can't disagree with anything you say. So many Java enterprise shops have absurd inheritance and "design pattern" abuse that makes it harder to actually work with the code, and slows things down.

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#18

Post by switchbak »

robmccoll wrote: post #3

Does this app take 5 minutes to start? That's so much dynamic Spring magic. Also, how do you keep track of control flow when anything at anytime could have been overridden by something else? It seems like tracing and debugging this thing would be like exploring someone else's codebase every time.

The class loading magic means you need to be exceptionally careful about things that would otherwise be very innocuous. It’s the rule, not the exception - that your average spring boot app will be doing tons of expensive stuff at startup. Most of which is unnecessary and was not even intended.

The JVM doesn’t need this kind of thing either, and it gets a bad wrap from the J(2)EE days, and the “simple” replacement that Spring was supposed to be.

No doubt there’s some benefits to be had, but I don’t think the trade-offs are worth it, especially at larger scales.

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#19

Post by switchbak »

ecshafer wrote: post #16
stackskipton wrote: post #8

Ops person here who has supported Java/SpringBoot applications. I think most of dislike of Java apps comes not from language or framework BUT from fact that most Java using workspaces are filled with mediocracy. They tend to be businesses with products that have extreme moats and thus quality of software barely matters. I imagine most people who would even read this medium article are dreaming of better than that.

I 100% agree. I have seen enterprise spring applications that throw away all of the speed through huge amounts of hot path object creation, nested loops, absurd amounts of factories, etc. After going through enough AbstractFactoryFactory calls to make object in an n^3 loop, the framework doesn't matter.

There really is an unlimited potential for crappy code in the enterprise. I imagine the volume will increase drastically in the age of AI.

Re: Spring Boot Done Right: Lessons from a 400-Module Codebase

#20

Post by e7h4nz »

ecshafer wrote: post #17
e7h4nz wrote: post #14

I worked on a core Spring Boot project for five or six years at a very large enterprise. In my opinion, the most dangerous thing about this framework is that it makes its core users feel far too self-assured. When looking at problems, your mind becomes consumed with how to force everything into design patterns—like architectural separation, DI, or interface / implementation split. This causes developers to lose sight…

I like Java fine. I would probably prefer Ruby, Rust or LISP given the chance. But I can't disagree with anything you say. So many Java enterprise shops have absurd inheritance and "design pattern" abuse that makes it harder to actually work with the code, and slows things down.

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