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Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

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Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#11

Post by Foe »

markus_zhang wrote: post #3
Foe wrote: post #2

Hi HN, I've been organizing a systems reading group at Microsoft for five years now. I wrote down some takeaways on what worked (and what didn't). I'd love to hear if anyone else has successfully kept an engineering reading group alive at their company, or if you have any favorite systems papers we should add to our list!

Interesting. We don't have an engineering culture, so definitely no. Did you find similar groups within MSFT? BTW heard about this paper[1] a few weeks ago, but not completely aligned with database and probably a bit too introductory for your group. [1] https://www.cs.fsu.edu/~awang/courses/cop5611_s2024/vnode.pd...

There are other groups within Microsoft, but they usually follow a presentation format rather than a collaborative discussion. Off the top of my head, Phil Bernstein[1] and Hanuma Kodavalla[2] run great database seminars for invited speakers. I regularly attend and have presented in both forums; Phil's crowd is mostly researchers, while Hanuma's is mostly full of SQL engineers. Different from a small reading group, but still great.

Appreciate the paper link! We like going back to the basics sometimes, so I'll definitely take a look.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bernstein

[2] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=9eNQbZUAAAAJ&hl=en

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#12

Post by zihotki »

smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

This is a very good question. I also struggle to find a good solution to process various signals (papers, tecniques, etc.) with my co-workers while maintaining proper work-life balance. Either you have to be a full time geek, or be left behind..

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#13

Post by Foe »

SegfaultSeagull wrote: post #6
Foe wrote: post #2

Hi HN, I've been organizing a systems reading group at Microsoft for five years now. I wrote down some takeaways on what worked (and what didn't). I'd love to hear if anyone else has successfully kept an engineering reading group alive at their company, or if you have any favorite systems papers we should add to our list!

This is great and congrats on the success. Many years ago I tried starting a cybersecurity reading group in my city since the startup I was working at was small and people there weren’t interested in that topic. I got a lot of very green, aspiring and non-professionals to show up. We couldn’t really agree on where to start and people had different ideas of where to focus or even how much they wanted to contribute. Mo…

Thank you! I think the biggest factor for us was that most attendees already had some technical baseline. That makes it way easier to pick papers and have productive discussions. A cross-experience group sounds much harder. We occasionally have non-technical people who attend (e.g., designers), but they usually are very eager to learn. The guided series format might have helped in your case, where you pick the topic and sequence upfront so there's less debate about direction each meeting. Honestly, just getting people to show up is hard at first, so the fact that you got it off the ground at all says something.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#14

Post by thi2 »

eldenring wrote: post #7
smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

I'm not sure what you mean by menial coding but all my employers have supported this in the past. This was a variety of companies, big tech, startups, etc. I think its more likely your employer is the outlier.

Thats my experience as well. Of course not ten paper a day but some learning is always encouraged.

One company had a +1 day. You worked 4 days, had 1 day for learning - everything relevant for the job was fine.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#15

Post by thi2 »

Foe wrote: post #2

Hi HN, I've been organizing a systems reading group at Microsoft for five years now. I wrote down some takeaways on what worked (and what didn't). I'd love to hear if anyone else has successfully kept an engineering reading group alive at their company, or if you have any favorite systems papers we should add to our list!

Any tipps on finding interesting and valuable papers?

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#16

Post by zihotki »

Foe wrote: post #8
smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

Good question. Most people read the paper on their own time, and we meet over lunch. The meetings themselves are just an hour, so it's not a massive time block. I've found that the people who show up are the ones who are genuinely curious and would be reading this stuff anyway (and sometimes just need a commitment/accountability to do it). Having a group gives them a reason to do it on a schedule.

That implies that you have a fixed time for lunch and also chat during lunch. I may be the minority but I prefer to eat when I'm hungry and focus on the food instead of chatting. And there is also allergies, as a celiac, I have big troubles eating together with others - they may accidently contaminate my food

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#17

Post by markn951 »

smokel wrote: post #5

I understand that in a research lab or in academia, this is common practice. But in the more menial coding industry that most of us are probably in, how do you find time for this? Do people read papers in their spare time and discuss over lunch, or are there enlightened managers who support this during working hours?

Speaking as a SWE manager who explicitly “mandates” (not actually mandatory but I strongly encourage following your passions and interests in an academic kind of way!) we do exist, I assume I’m not the only one :)

My team almost always can find an hour between tasks organically so I’ve never really had to push

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#18

Post by Foe »

thi2 wrote: post #15
Foe wrote: post #2

Hi HN, I've been organizing a systems reading group at Microsoft for five years now. I wrote down some takeaways on what worked (and what didn't). I'd love to hear if anyone else has successfully kept an engineering reading group alive at their company, or if you have any favorite systems papers we should add to our list!

Any tipps on finding interesting and valuable papers?

It depends on the theme. If we're picking something in a space the group already knows well, like databases, I'll look at "Best Papers" from recent VLDB/ICDE/SIGMOD conferences. If we're exploring a topic most people are unfamiliar with, we'll go with something more foundational instead. For example, we're starting an arc on datacenters (servers, racks, networking, load balancing, power, cooling, failures, etc.), and most attendees don't have deep background there, so I found a book on the topic that we're going to read through[1].

[1] https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-01761-2

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#19

Post by johngossman »

nico wrote: post #9
eldenring wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean by menial coding but all my employers have supported this in the past. This was a variety of companies, big tech, startups, etc. I think its more likely your employer is the outlier.

I’ve been scolded for reading books and documentation for the tasks and software I was asked to build (at a startup) during my regular work hours No company I’ve worked at has ever had dedicated time for reading papers or articles Maybe I’ve only worked at outliers?

In 35 years in the industry, reading and studying during work hours were always supported. Frankly, most places would let us play video games during work hours as long as we met our deadlines.

Re: Five years of running a systems reading group at Microsoft

#20

Post by markus_zhang »

Foe wrote: post #11
markus_zhang wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. We don't have an engineering culture, so definitely no. Did you find similar groups within MSFT? BTW heard about this paper[1] a few weeks ago, but not completely aligned with database and probably a bit too introductory for your group. [1] https://www.cs.fsu.edu/~awang/courses/cop5611_s2024/vnode.pd...

There are other groups within Microsoft, but they usually follow a presentation format rather than a collaborative discussion. Off the top of my head, Phil Bernstein[1] and Hanuma Kodavalla[2] run great database seminars for invited speakers. I regularly attend and have presented in both forums; Phil's crowd is mostly researchers, while Hanuma's is mostly full of SQL engineers. Different from a small reading group, b…

Thanks for the references!
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