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Elite Overproduction

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Re: Elite Overproduction

#11

Post by ftmootnomoat »

timmg wrote: post #2

I'm one of those people that goes by the "all models are wrong, but some models are useful" saying. I'm sure the "elite overproduction" model is mostly wrong. But I also think it is an interesting/useful way to look at some things happening in society recently. Certainly, you can think of the recent "cancel culture" phenomena as a great way to remove elites to make room for new ones. ( Maybe you could argue that some…

You just wanted to jam in this conversation your dislike of DEI (which can be criticised but it’s not the subject).

Elite overproduction is about everybody wanting to be basically managers and nobody wanting to be production workers.

Except that without enough production workers it’s impossible to justify “elite” positions.

College graduates took on huge debt only to realise they’re not needed. That’s how you get a class of young, angry and unemployed intellectuals which is every government’s worst nightmare.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#12

Post by whearyou »

pfisherman wrote: post #8

I associate this phrase with losers and people trying to sabotage the US. You know who is not wringing their hands about “elite overproduction”? China, who are pumping out tons of smart and capable STEM PhDs, and have in a relatively short time caught up to and in some cases surpassed the US in production of scientific output and technology.

Per Turchin model, the declining population in China has created conditions for more elite-adjacent positions for all those STEM PhDs, preventing overproduction

Re: Elite Overproduction

#13

Post by badpun »

pfisherman wrote: post #8

I associate this phrase with losers and people trying to sabotage the US. You know who is not wringing their hands about “elite overproduction”? China, who are pumping out tons of smart and capable STEM PhDs, and have in a relatively short time caught up to and in some cases surpassed the US in production of scientific output and technology.

Have you looked at the Wikipedia article? China is specifically addressed there, with elite (as in - highly educated people) overproduction and unemployment reaching such levels that government is now suggesting they should seek manual labor jobs.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#14

Post by scrappyjoe »

pfisherman wrote: post #8

I associate this phrase with losers and people trying to sabotage the US. You know who is not wringing their hands about “elite overproduction”? China, who are pumping out tons of smart and capable STEM PhDs, and have in a relatively short time caught up to and in some cases surpassed the US in production of scientific output and technology.

> I associate this phrase with losers

Completely separate from the substance of your point, this sort of language does not encourage constructive dialog, it frames the discussion in such a way that you are either going to get

a. People who agree with you, resulting in you not learning anything b. People who are triggered into fighting with you, once again, resulting in you not learning anything c. People ignoring you, resulting in you not learning anything.

My constructive suggestion to you is that you simply don't write that first sentence. I suspect you (and everyone else!) will have a much more fruitful time online as a result!

Edit: Spelling correction

Re: Elite Overproduction

#15

Post by whattheheckheck »

Yeah society needs to be able to allow for this

In Machiavelli's view. whoever desires to establish a kingdom or principality where liberty and equality to prevail, will equally fail, unless he withdraws from that general equality a number of the boldest and most ambitious spirits, and makes gentlemen of them not merely in name but in fact, by giving them castles and possessions, as well as money and subjects; so that surrounded by these he may be able to maintain his power, and that by his support they may satisfy their ambition, and the others may be constrained to submit to that yoke to which force alone has been able to subject them. ... But to establish a republic in a country better adapted to a monarchy, or a monarchy where a republic would be more suitable, requires a man of rare genius and power, and therefore out of the many that have attempted it but few have succeeded. (Discourses I; Machiavelli [15311 1950, chap. 55, p. 256

Re: Elite Overproduction

#16

Post by zingababba »

atomic_reed wrote: post #5
timmg wrote: post #2

I'm one of those people that goes by the "all models are wrong, but some models are useful" saying. I'm sure the "elite overproduction" model is mostly wrong. But I also think it is an interesting/useful way to look at some things happening in society recently. Certainly, you can think of the recent "cancel culture" phenomena as a great way to remove elites to make room for new ones. ( Maybe you could argue that some…

Elite overproduction = Elected overproduction = Elected mass-production. There are those that value equality (=). There are those that value non-equality (>). As elites of the history until now (>=6000 years-ago until now). We are the "chosen ones" who received "=" and ">" at an early age. These symbols are not "math" nor "school"; they are simply life to us. But now consider why there must be ">" in the world. On a…

Yes I see your point exactly.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#17

Post by pembrook »

pfisherman wrote: post #8

I associate this phrase with losers and people trying to sabotage the US. You know who is not wringing their hands about “elite overproduction”? China, who are pumping out tons of smart and capable STEM PhDs, and have in a relatively short time caught up to and in some cases surpassed the US in production of scientific output and technology.

In my view, STEM PhDs are not members of the “elite.”

Historically, in the US the elite are the managerial class, the lawyers (future politicians), and the coastal dilettantes who are already wealthy enough to major in the social sciences.

When 1+ million students are getting MBAs every year in the belief they will be members of the C-suite, but there’s only a few thousand such positions, you have a case of elite overproduction.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#18

Post by ftmootnomoat »

pfisherman wrote: post #8

I associate this phrase with losers and people trying to sabotage the US. You know who is not wringing their hands about “elite overproduction”? China, who are pumping out tons of smart and capable STEM PhDs, and have in a relatively short time caught up to and in some cases surpassed the US in production of scientific output and technology.

It works in China because they have growth. In the west thousands of college kids thought they could land cushy management positions or at least highly paid expert jobs.

Then these kids realise these jobs don’t exist, that they should have gone to trade school instead, and that their student debt will cripple them for life.

Same thing will happen in China. For now their economy grows so fast it can absorb many intellectuals, but that won’t last forever.

Re: Elite Overproduction

#19

Post by farialima »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #4

I found this interesting: “… the two decades after World War II in the United States, a time of economic redistribution and reversal of upward social mobility.” Does anyone have a summary about the “reversal of upward mobility” bit? I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard that anywhere else and I don’t think I have the mental model to understand it intuitively without an explanation.

I think it’s just poorly worded; it’s about the upward mobility of the _generation born after the Second World War_. This generation lacked opportunities and this created unrest in the 60s and 70s.

The previous generation – the one that reached adulthood before and during WW 2 – had upward mobility in the 40s, 50s, and wanted its children to have too

Re: Elite Overproduction

#20

Post by ForHackernews »

pfisherman wrote: post #8

I associate this phrase with losers and people trying to sabotage the US. You know who is not wringing their hands about “elite overproduction”? China, who are pumping out tons of smart and capable STEM PhDs, and have in a relatively short time caught up to and in some cases surpassed the US in production of scientific output and technology.

STEM PhDs and engineers are not the elite at issue here. They're talking about the social elite, and the angry wannabes shut out of the ruling class.
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