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Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

anthropic.com

11–20 of 188 posts

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#11
It's interesting that they counted these as security vulnerabilities (from the linked Anthropic article)

> “Crude” is an important caveat here. The exploits Claude wrote only worked on our testing environment, which intentionally removed some of the security features found in modern browsers. This includes, most importantly, the sandbox, the purpose of which is to reduce the impact of these types of vulnerabilities. Thus, Firefox’s “defense in depth” would have been effective at mitigating these particular exploits.

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#12
post #11

It's interesting that they counted these as security vulnerabilities (from the linked Anthropic article) > “Crude” is an important caveat here. The exploits Claude wrote only worked on our testing environment, which intentionally removed some of the security features found in modern browsers. This includes, most importantly, the sandbox, the purpose of which is to reduce the impact of these types of vulnerabilities.…

[deleted]

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#13
post #11

It's interesting that they counted these as security vulnerabilities (from the linked Anthropic article) > “Crude” is an important caveat here. The exploits Claude wrote only worked on our testing environment, which intentionally removed some of the security features found in modern browsers. This includes, most importantly, the sandbox, the purpose of which is to reduce the impact of these types of vulnerabilities.…

[Work at Anthropic, used to work at Mozilla.]

Firefox has never required a full chain exploit in order to consider something a vulnerability. A large proportion of disclosed Firefox vulnerabilities are vulnerabilities in the sandboxed process.

If you look at Firefox's Security Severity Rating doc: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security_Severity_Ratings/Client what you'll see is that vulnerabilities within the sandbox, and sandbox escapes, are both independently considered vulnerabilities. Chrome considers vulnerabilities in a similar manner.

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#14
post #11

It's interesting that they counted these as security vulnerabilities (from the linked Anthropic article) > “Crude” is an important caveat here. The exploits Claude wrote only worked on our testing environment, which intentionally removed some of the security features found in modern browsers. This includes, most importantly, the sandbox, the purpose of which is to reduce the impact of these types of vulnerabilities.…

[Work at Anthropic, used to work at Mozilla.] Firefox has never required a full chain exploit in order to consider something a vulnerability. A large proportion of disclosed Firefox vulnerabilities are vulnerabilities in the sandboxed process. If you look at Firefox's Security Severity Rating doc: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security_Severity_Ratings/Client what you'll see is that vulnerabilities within the sandbox, and…

Makes sense, thank you!

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#16

Anthropic feels like they are flailing around constantly trying to find something to do. A C compiler that didn't work, a browser that didn't work, and now solving bugs in Firefox.

This makes sense - they are demonstrating the capability of their core product by doing so? They dont make browsers, c compilers, they sell ai + dev tools.

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#17
I've had mixed results. I find that agents can be great for:

1. Producing new tests to increase coverage. Migrating you to property testing. Setting up fuzzing. Setting up more static analysis tooling. All of that would normally take "time" but now it's a background task.

2. They can find some vulnerabilities. They are "okay" at this, but if you are willing to burn tokens then it's fine.

3. They are absolutely wrong sometimes about something being safe. I have had Claude very explicitly state that a security boundary existed when it didn't. That is, it appeared to exist in the same way that a chroot appears to confine, and it was intended to be a security boundary, but it was not a sufficient boundary whatsoever. Multiple models not only identified the boundary and stated it exists but referred to it as "extremely safe" or other such things. This has happened to me a number of times and it required a lot of nudging for it to see the problems.

4. They often seem to do better with "local" bugs. Often something that has the very obvious pattern of an unsafe thing. Sort of like "that's a pointer deref" or "that's an array access" or "that's `unsafe {}`" etc. They do far, far worse the less "local" a vulnerability is. Product features that interact in unsafe ways when combined, that's something I have yet to have an AI be able to pick up on. This is unsurprising - if we trivialize agents as "pattern matchers", well, spotting some unsafe patterns and then validating the known properties of that pattern to validate is not so surprising, but "your product has multiple completely unrelated features, bugs, and deployment properties, which all combine into a vulnerability" is not something they'll notice easily.

It's important to remain skeptical of safety claims by models. Finding vulns is huge, but you need to be able to spot the mistakes.

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#18

I've had mixed results. I find that agents can be great for: 1. Producing new tests to increase coverage. Migrating you to property testing. Setting up fuzzing. Setting up more static analysis tooling. All of that would normally take "time" but now it's a background task. 2. They can find some vulnerabilities. They are "okay" at this, but if you are willing to burn tokens then it's fine. 3. They are absolutely wrong…

[work at Mozilla]

I agree that LLMs are sometimes wrong, which is why this new method here is so valuable - it provides us with easily verifiable testcases rather than just some kind of analysis that could be right or wrong. Purely triaging through vulnerability reports that are static (i.e. no actual PoC) is very time consuming and false-positive prone (same issue with pure static analysis).

I can't really confirm the part about "local" bugs anymore though, but that might also be a model thing. When I did experiments longer ago, this was certainly true, esp. for the "one shot" approaches where you basically prompt it once with source code and want some analysis back. But this actually changed with agentic SDKs where more context can be pulled together automatically.

Re: Hardening Firefox with Anthropic's Red Team

#20

Anthropic feels like they are flailing around constantly trying to find something to do. A C compiler that didn't work, a browser that didn't work, and now solving bugs in Firefox.

I think it's a nice break from vibe-coding. It feels like a good direction in terms of use cases for LLM.
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