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Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

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Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#11

I think it’s already time for us to stop calling these things "intelligent" or using the word intelligence when referring to LLMs. These tools are very dangerous for people who are mentally fragile.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality.

People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routine curated and managed, preventing them from interacting with things that can result in dangerous outcomes. Anything that can trigger obsessive behaviors, paranoid delusions, etc.

They're not just fragile, they're unable to effectively engage with reality on their own. Sometimes the right medication and behavioral training gets them to a point where they can have limited independence, but often times, they need a lifetime of supervision.

Telenovelas, brand names, celebrities, specific food items, a word - AI is just the latest thing in a world full of phenomena that can utterly consume their reality.

Gavalas seems to have had a psychotic break, was likely susceptible to schizophrenia, or had other conditions, and spiraled out. AI is just a convenient target for lawyers taking advantage of the grieving parents, who want an explanation for what happened that doesn't involve them not recognizing their son's mental breakdown and intervening, or to confront being powerless despite everything they did to intervene.

Sometimes bad things happen. To good people, too.

If he'd used Bic pens to write his plans for mass shootings, should Bic be held responsible? What if he used Microsoft Word to write his suicide note? If he googled things that in context, painted a picture of planning mass murder and suicide, should Google be held accountable for not notifying authorities? Why should the use of AI tools be any different?

Google should not be surveilling users and making judgments about legality or ethicality or morality. They shouldn't be intervening without specific warrants and legal oversight by proper authorities within the constraints of due process.

Google isn't responsible for this guy's death because he spiraled out while using Gemini. We don't want Google, or any other AI platform, to take that responsibility or to engage in the necessary invasive surveillance in order to accomplish that. That's absurd and far more evil than the tragedy of one man dying by suicide and using AI through the process.

You don't want Google or OpenAI making mental health diagnoses, judgments about your state of mind, character, or agency, and initiating actions with legal consequences. You don't want Claude or ChatGPT initiating a 5150, or triggering a welfare check, because they decided something is off about the way you're prompting, and they feel legally obligated to go that far because they want to avoid liability.

I hope this case gets tossed, but also that those parents find some sort of peace, it's a terrible situation all around.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#12
post #9

Any mental illness mixed with delusions is likely going to end badly. Whether they think Gemini is alive, a video game is real life or that Bjork loves them without ever talking to or meeting them. While LLM's are interactive and listening to an album isn't I don't think there is a fix to this outside posting a warning after every prompt "I am not a real person, if you have mental issues please contact your doctor of…

> I'm more inclined to believe that this case is getting amplified in MSM because it fits an agenda.

I mean tech in general has been negatively covered in the media since 2015 due to latent agendas of (a) supposed revenue loss due to existence of Google/FB etc and (b) to align neutral moderation stances towards a preferred viewpoint most suitable to the political party in question.

There is a solution, however, anyone hoping to roleplay with models submits an identity verification, an escrow amount, and a recorded statement acknowledging their risky use of the model. However, I assume the market for this is not insignificant, and therefore, companies hope to avoid putting in such requirements. OpenAI has been moving in that direction as seen during the 4o debacle.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#13

I think it’s already time for us to stop calling these things "intelligent" or using the word intelligence when referring to LLMs. These tools are very dangerous for people who are mentally fragile.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

> Why should the use of AI tools be any different?

Because none of the tools you mentioned are crazily marketed as intelligent

You have a valid point, but it has nothing to do with what I said, both our arguments can be true at the same time

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#14

I think it’s already time for us to stop calling these things "intelligent" or using the word intelligence when referring to LLMs. These tools are very dangerous for people who are mentally fragile.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

> These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness.

How do you know that? The concern is precisely that this isn't the case, and LLM roleplay is capable of "hooking" people going through psychologically normal sadness or distress. That's what the family believes happened in this story.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

> Why should the use of AI tools be any different? Because none of the tools you mentioned are crazily marketed as intelligent You have a valid point, but it has nothing to do with what I said, both our arguments can be true at the same time

LLMs are intelligent. Marketing them as such is an accurate descriptor of what they are.

If people are confusing the word intelligence for things like maturity or wisdom, that's not a marketing problem, that's an education and culture problem, and we should be getting people to learn more about what the tools are and how they work. The platforms themselves frequently disclaim reliance on their tools - seek professional guidance, experts, doctors, lawyers, etc. They're not being marketed as substitutes for expert human judgment. In fact, all the AI companies are marketing their platforms as augmentations for humans - insisting you need a human in the loop, to be careful about hallucinations, and so forth.

The implication is that there's some liability for misunderstandings or improper use due to these tools being marketed as intelligent; I'm not sure I see how that could be?

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#17
I have had conversations where the bot started with a firm opinion but reversed in a prompt or two, always toward my point of view.

So I asked it if the sycophancy is inherent in the design, or if it just comes from the RLHF. It claimed that it's all about the RLHF, and that the sycophancy is a business decision that is a compromise of a variety of forces.

Is that right? It would at least mean that this is technically a solvable problem.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

> These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. How do you know that? The concern is precisely that this isn't the case, and LLM roleplay is capable of "hooking" people going through psychologically normal sadness or distress. That's what the family believes happened in this story.

Because you'd see a large number of people getting affected by this. Because this sort of thing is predictable and normal throughout history; it's exactly the type of thing you'd expect to see, knowing the range of mental illnesses people are susceptible to, and how other technology has affected them.

Re: Gemini Said They Could Only Be Together If He Killed Himself. Soon, He Was Dead

#20

I think it’s already time for us to stop calling these things "intelligent" or using the word intelligence when referring to LLMs. These tools are very dangerous for people who are mentally fragile.

So is television. So are books. Vulnerable people shouldn't have unfettered access to things that can lead to dangerous feedback loops and losing their grasp on reality. People who are vulnerable to this type of thing need caretakers, or to be institutionalized. These aren't just average, every day random people getting taken out by AIs, they have existing, extreme mental illness. They need to have their entire routi…

Just stuff anyone with mental illness into an institution. That worked out so well last time. Or maybe make healthcare affordable and accessible. That seems like a way more obvious detriment to negative outcomes.

I broadly agree with you, but your views on mental illness are not good.

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