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Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

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Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#11
post #4

This is IMO one of the coolest tech stories to ever happen, seriously amazing spycraft & hacking skills, but I haven't been keeping up with new developments from this story since it broke. Last I heard, the best guess at what happened was some state-sponsored actor worked very hard to get this merged, and it was caught luckily at the last minute. But no one had any smoking gun as to who did it or why or who they were…

Still no smoking gun, but possibly Russia. From the video https://youtu.be/aoag03mSuXQ?t=2883 : > A lot of the aliases, like Jia Tan, they sound like Asian names, and the published changes are all timestamped in UTC+8, Beijing time. So the signs point to China. And that's why it's probably not China. I mean, why would they make it that obvious? Every other part of the operation has been so meticulous, so cautious. >…

>And that's why it's probably not China. I mean, why would they make it that obvious?

That's just what they want you to think!

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#13
I actually watched this last night, and while I totally understand that criticism is easy, and making things is hard (and the production quality here is great); I got a weird vibe from the video when it comes to who it is for.

The technical explanations are way too complex (even though they're "dumbed down" somewhat with the colour mixing scenario), that anyone who understands those will also know about how dependencies work and how Linux came to be.

It feels almost like it's made for people like my mum, but it will lose them almost immediately at the first mention of complex polynomials.

The actual weight of the situation kinda lands though, and that's important. It's really difficult to overstate how incredibly lucky we were to catch it, and how sophisticated the attack actually was.

I'm really sad that we will genuinely never know who was behind it, and anxious that such things are already in our systems.

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still no smoking gun, but possibly Russia. From the video https://youtu.be/aoag03mSuXQ?t=2883 : > A lot of the aliases, like Jia Tan, they sound like Asian names, and the published changes are all timestamped in UTC+8, Beijing time. So the signs point to China. And that's why it's probably not China. I mean, why would they make it that obvious? Every other part of the operation has been so meticulous, so cautious. >…

Russians don't celebrate Christmas on the 25th.

That was also what I took away when watching the video. Russians don't celebrate Christmas on the 25th (they Celebrate on January 7th), but even more than that: Russians don't celebrate Christmas the same way we do in the west.

Their "Christmas" family celebrations are on New Years Eve.

So if you're drawing conclusions from them not working on the 25th (which is a literal normal day in eastern europe) then signs point elsewhere unfortunately.

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#15
post #13

I actually watched this last night, and while I totally understand that criticism is easy, and making things is hard (and the production quality here is great); I got a weird vibe from the video when it comes to who it is for . The technical explanations are way too complex (even though they're "dumbed down" somewhat with the colour mixing scenario), that anyone who understands those will also know about how dependen…

My partner who is an accountant, so intelligent but not technical, watched some Veritasium documentaries the other day.

Her comment was that she was really impressed that it didnt dumb anything down like normal documentaries do. She was able to follow along more technical stuff than she anticipated, and that made her enjoy it even more.

I think we need to give people more credit when it comes to complex or techincal explanations. If people are enjoying the context but dont understand the techincal, they can just gloss over that if they prefer. But I felt this was quite telling at how and why Veritasium is such a popular channel.

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#17
Lovely video, going into almost everything...

...and yet, zero mention of systemd's recommendation for programs to link in the libsystemd kitchen sink just to call sd_notify() (which should really be its own library)

...and no mention of why systemd felt the need to preemptively load compression libraries, which it only needs to read/write compressed log files, even if you don't read/write log files at all? Again, it's a whole independent subsystem that could be its own library.

The video showed that xz was a dependency of OpenSSH. It showed on screen, but never said aloud, that this was only because of systemd. Debian/Redhat's sshd [0] was started with systemd and they added in a call to the sd_notify() helper function (which simply sends a message to the $NOTIFY_SOCKET socket), just to inform systemd of the exact moment sshd is ready. This loads the whole of libsystemd. That loads the whole of liblzma. Since the xz backdoor, OpenSSH no longer uses the sd_notify() function directly, it writes its own code to connect to $NOTIFY_SOCKET. And the sd_notify manpage begrudgingly gives a listing of code you can use to avoid calling it, so if you're an independent program with no connection to systemd, you just want to notify it you've started... you don't need to pull in the libsystemd kitchen sink. As it should've been in the first place.

Is the real master hacker Lennart Poettering, for making sure his architectural choices didn't appear in this video?

[0]: as an aside, the systemd notification code is only in Debian, Redhat et al because OpenSSH is OpenBSD's fork of Tatu Ylönen's SSH, which went on to become proprietary software. systemd is Linux-only and will never support OpenBSD, so likewise OpenBSD don't include any lines of code in OpenSSH to support systemd. Come to think of it, "BSD" is another thing they don't mention in the script, despite mentioning the AT&T lawsuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDi)

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#18
post #4

This is IMO one of the coolest tech stories to ever happen, seriously amazing spycraft & hacking skills, but I haven't been keeping up with new developments from this story since it broke. Last I heard, the best guess at what happened was some state-sponsored actor worked very hard to get this merged, and it was caught luckily at the last minute. But no one had any smoking gun as to who did it or why or who they were…

Still no smoking gun, but possibly Russia. From the video https://youtu.be/aoag03mSuXQ?t=2883 : > A lot of the aliases, like Jia Tan, they sound like Asian names, and the published changes are all timestamped in UTC+8, Beijing time. So the signs point to China. And that's why it's probably not China. I mean, why would they make it that obvious? Every other part of the operation has been so meticulous, so cautious. >…

UTC+2 isn't very convincing as an argument for Russia. Only the Kaliningrad exclave uses that timezone, and if I were in a state-backed group, I'd live in one of the big cities.

Also quick search suggested UTC+3 was seen during the summer, and Russia doesn't do DST either.

Edit: some of the UTC+2/3 times are attributable to being differences in git committer and author dates (e.g. email patches)

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#19

Lovely video, going into almost everything... ...and yet, zero mention of systemd's recommendation for programs to link in the libsystemd kitchen sink just to call sd_notify() (which should really be its own library) ...and no mention of why systemd felt the need to preemptively load compression libraries, which it only needs to read/write compressed log files, even if you don't read/write log files at all? Again, it…

It did get mentioned - in the context of the upstream change to dynamically load those libraries being a threat to the hack's viability which may have caused "Jia Tan" to rush and accidentally make mistakes in the process.

Re: Story of XZ Backdoor [video]

#20
post #13

I actually watched this last night, and while I totally understand that criticism is easy, and making things is hard (and the production quality here is great); I got a weird vibe from the video when it comes to who it is for . The technical explanations are way too complex (even though they're "dumbed down" somewhat with the colour mixing scenario), that anyone who understands those will also know about how dependen…

Veritasium started out as a physics channel, and they've covered a wide variety of physics, math and science topics. They are never afraid of showing you the math, but one of the things I think they are really good at is not losing the human part of the story even if you can't follow the numbers exactly. At the end of the day it's humans who came up with this stuff in the first place, so it must be possible to understand it.

They aren't really a technology channel though, at least as it relates to software/computers, so that's probably why the video starts out with a brief history of Linux.

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