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The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
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Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#12Everything is a trade off in the world. I think that people who are anti-id ignore this but for me personally it’s harder and harder to accept the trade offs of an internet without id. AI has only accelerated this, I don’t want to live in a world where the average person unknowingly interacts with bots more than other individuals and where black market actors can sway public opinion with armies of bots. I think most…
100% correct. At this point the harms to children from social media use are very well documented.
Like everything else in society, there are tradeoffs here, I'm much more concerned with the damage done to children's developing brains than I am to violations of data privacy, so I'm okay with age verification, however draconian it may be.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#13>Some observers present privacy-preserving age proofs involving a third party, such as the government, as a solution, but they inherit the same structural flaw: many users who are legally old enough to use a platform do not have government ID. So there is absolutely no way to change that and give out IDs from the age of 14? You can already get an ID for children in Germany https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/reise…
> This is a problem [..]
(This is a genuine question) please could you describe the underlying problem that age verification is attempting to solve?
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#14My main takeaway from this is that politicians seem to have given up on making "social media" less harmful by regulating it, and instead focus on gatekeeping access, with the added perk of supplying security services and ad tyrants with yet another data pump.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#15Everything is a trade off in the world. I think that people who are anti-id ignore this but for me personally it’s harder and harder to accept the trade offs of an internet without id. AI has only accelerated this, I don’t want to live in a world where the average person unknowingly interacts with bots more than other individuals and where black market actors can sway public opinion with armies of bots. I think most…
ID verification doesn't protect against that. Why not? Because there are a lot of people that will trade their ID for a small amount of money, or log someone/something in. IDs are for sale, like everyone who was ever a high school student knows for "some" reason.
Plus what you're asking would require international id verification for everyone, which would first mostly make those IDs a lot cheaper. But there's a second negative effect. The organizations issuing those IDs, governments, are the ones making the bot armies. Just try to discuss anything about Russia, or how bad some specific decision of the Chinese CCP is. Or, if you're so inclined: think about how having this in the US would mean Trump would be authorizing bot armies.
This exists within China, by the way, and I guarantee you: it did not result in honest online discussion about goods, services or politics. Anonymity is required.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#16if you are paying for internet access you have to be over 18, no? and if you have internet access without paying, that means someone else is legally responsible for your access "problem solved" ?
> if you are paying for internet access you have to be over 18, no?
No, that's not the case.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#17>Some observers present privacy-preserving age proofs involving a third party, such as the government, as a solution, but they inherit the same structural flaw: many users who are legally old enough to use a platform do not have government ID. So there is absolutely no way to change that and give out IDs from the age of 14? You can already get an ID for children in Germany https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/reise…
What problem? I don't think internet websites and apps actually need to know the face, age, or name of their users if their users don't want to provide that information. With exceptions for things like gambling websites.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#18>Some observers present privacy-preserving age proofs involving a third party, such as the government, as a solution, but they inherit the same structural flaw: many users who are legally old enough to use a platform do not have government ID. So there is absolutely no way to change that and give out IDs from the age of 14? You can already get an ID for children in Germany https://www.germany.info/us-de/service/reise…
Exactly right. Also, better to be overly restrictive here given the well documented harms of social media on young minds. If the law stipulates that you must be 15 to obtain social media access, and most people don't get their IDs until 18, then most people will stay off social media for another three years: no big deal.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#19Device based attestation seems like the way to go largely; it doesn't solve the problem, but it's good enough that it would cover most cases.
Re: The Age Verification Trap: Verifying age undermines everyone's data protection
#20if you are paying for internet access you have to be over 18, no? and if you have internet access without paying, that means someone else is legally responsible for your access "problem solved" ?
Ideally the law would require websites (and apps) to provide some signed age requirement token to the client (plus possibly classification) instead of the reverse. Similarly OS and web clients should be required to provide locked down modes where the maxium age and/or classification could be selected. As a parent I would the be able to setup my child device however I wish without loss of privacy.
Is it bypassable by a sufficiently determined child? Yes, but so it is the current age verification nonsense.