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An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

norvig.com

11–18 of 18 posts

Re: An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

#11
By Norvig's calculation, the swing voters in the 2000 election voted wrongly, costing the country $600,000 each. Much more rational and patriotic to not vote, then.

Also, remember that Bush presided over two terms, winning two elections, and the majority of the "cost" was in the second term and thus not a direct result of the close 2000 presidential election he's analyzing.

Conclusion: Norvig's analysis in this case, in contrast to his technical work, is not worth the paper it is (not) printed on.

Moral: Political speech is usually politically motivated, and is generally not as strongly based in rational analysis as the speaker would have you believe.

Re: An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

#12
post #6

This is possibly the most reasonable and cool-headed analysis of an upcoming election that I have ever read. I love how he concludes that voting is rational. I'd never thought to multiply the, potentially massive, cost of the candidate I disfavor getting elected, multiply it by the tiny chance my vote makes the difference, and compare the result to the amount of money I make in an hour. He admits his cost figures are…

His reasoning is actually quite flawed. Even if you believe there is somehow a black and white $7.7 trillion value difference between candidates, betting on such long odds still isn't rational.

If we assume (using numbers from the article) that a vote costs $20 (an hour of our time), the odds are 1 to 10 million, and the payoff is $7.7 trillion (even though it's the country getting the benefit, not the voter) then the Kelly criterion* implies that it's only rational to vote if your net worth is more than $200 million. Somebody making $20 an hour probably isn't worth $200 million, and so even if voting did have a positive expected value, it's not a rational strategy.

TL,DR: There is more to betting strategy than expected valve, and no rational gambler takes a bet with 1/10 million odds for $20.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion

Re: An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

#13

Given raganwald's recent "Tell HN", is it possible to keep the discussion on this thread civil? I would assume it is still impossible to needlessly argue politics here, but please prove me wrong.

https://twitter.com/raganwald/status/262370665636716545

Re: An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

#14
post #6

This is possibly the most reasonable and cool-headed analysis of an upcoming election that I have ever read. I love how he concludes that voting is rational. I'd never thought to multiply the, potentially massive, cost of the candidate I disfavor getting elected, multiply it by the tiny chance my vote makes the difference, and compare the result to the amount of money I make in an hour. He admits his cost figures are…

[deleted]

Re: An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

#15
post #6

This is possibly the most reasonable and cool-headed analysis of an upcoming election that I have ever read. I love how he concludes that voting is rational. I'd never thought to multiply the, potentially massive, cost of the candidate I disfavor getting elected, multiply it by the tiny chance my vote makes the difference, and compare the result to the amount of money I make in an hour. He admits his cost figures are…

This is possibly the most reasonable and cool-headed analysis of an upcoming election that .

-- Its astonishing that there is nothing in this regarding the US Debt. eg http://www.kpcb.com/insights/usa-inc-full-report [1]

______________

[1] Summary> http://www.businessinsider.com/mary-meeker-usa-inc-february-...

Re: An FAQ for the 2012 US Presidential Election

#16
post #11

By Norvig's calculation, the swing voters in the 2000 election voted wrongly, costing the country $600,000 each. Much more rational and patriotic to not vote, then. Also, remember that Bush presided over two terms, winning two elections, and the majority of the "cost" was in the second term and thus not a direct result of the close 2000 presidential election he's analyzing. Conclusion: Norvig's analysis in this case,…

I agree with your Moral, but the rest of what you've said here doesn't quite hold with history.

1. The majority of the cost (the war in Iraq) was initiated in the first term; a better president with better advisors (IMO, Iraq II was all Cheney and Rumsfeld) would not have gone to war in Iraq with the flimsy justifications presented. Thus, the continuing cost of that war would not have happened during the second term. We may have seen an expanded conflict in Afghanistan, but there was substantial international support for this, which would have spread the costs around. It's a fair cop to place the whole cost of the Iraq war on the election in 2000.

2. The financial crisis was enabled by four primary factors: loosened mortgage rules from before 2000 (e.g., under Clinton), irresponsible tax cuts (reducing real stimulus available to the government), the war in Iraq (reducing real stimulus available to the government), and increased and accelerated deregulation of financial players at a time when it was known that there were some systematically bad players (see Enron and others). Given that all four factors happened in the first Bush term, it's also fair to place at least a large chunk of this on Bush.

I would fault Norvig's evaluation mostly on his view of a non-Bush presidency. It is highly unlikely that Gore would have been revenue neutral. On some aspects, it is almost certain that he would have been revenue neutral (no war in Iraq, but possibly expanded action in Afghanistan). Even so, the cost of 9/11 outside of the Bush context would be impossible to determine. I suspect that the TSA as it exists today would not exist; I fear that it could have been replaced with something more expensive (although hopefully less disdainful of civil liberties and the Americans they supposedly protect).

There are other things about the cost-benefit analysis that don't sit right with me as I'm reading them (the way of thinking of a vote as worth 600,000 vs pennies; it seems that more rational math would still be 600,000 vs 20,000), but it's the weakest part of the article to that point. I know what he was trying to do—but I don't think he made the case that it's patriotic to vote based on a financial analysis. (I think it is patriotic to vote, which is why I do vote.)

Everything before is a good summary and pointers to other people doing solid analysis.

The remainder of the article is fully political and can be treated as such (even though I personally agree with him).

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