Live data from Hacker News

Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

historytoday.com

11–20 of 82 posts

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#11

> Information was fed back into a central hub, the India House in Lisbon, where everything was stored under the crown's direct control to inform the next cycle of voyages. This system of feedback and adaptation was highly effective. It was accompanied by a rapid expansion in cartographic knowledge. This almost feels like state-sponsored R&D, 500 years ago.

Historically, what R&D there was, was often done by the state; simply because of being the entity with the most spare capacity to do so. It goes a long way back, Egyptian pharoes and Chinese emperors had written in their histories about how they invented things or made economic improvements. These were most likely done by people under their sponsorship, but nevertheless they saw it as part of their role.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#14
post #4

As a Brazilian, the whole improbable (and beautiful) history of Portugal raised by the "Navegações" and how badly they bottled the whole imperium (especially after the Brazilian independence, but one can argue that João VI opened the ports) and the sheer amount of lack of vision in not investing in production is something that will always amaze me. One can say that it was one of the longest imperiums in history (endi…

> but every time that I spend some time in Portuguese cities, I feel just bad

What do you mean? (Asking this as a Portuguese guy who really doesn't feel at home back there any more)

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would first have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of the iberian peninsula. Hard to imagine. Passing that hurdle, then you'd have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of western europe. Hard to imagine that. Then of europe as a whole and so on. Almost a joke now. Portuguese was never the major power of it's immediate vicinity, let alone the world. Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glori…

I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in wha…

Yes and no. it's not like they ever extracted taxes from most of the natives living in the amazon jungle. Saying that you rule over people that have literally never heard of you is, IMO, stretching the definition of "rule" quite a bit :-)

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#16
post #2

It would be interesting to imagine a uchronic world where Portuguese has become the lingua franca of the world.

You would first have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of the iberian peninsula. Hard to imagine. Passing that hurdle, then you'd have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of western europe. Hard to imagine that. Then of europe as a whole and so on. Almost a joke now. Portuguese was never the major power of it's immediate vicinity, let alone the world. Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glori…

The 1755 earthquake effectively nuked the capital and killed maybe a third of GDP.

Portugal was never interested in dominance of Europe - hard to project power to the centre when you're out on the far edge and have more of a navy than an army.

But the trade network was the first truly global network, and very much non-trivial.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in wha…

Yes and no. it's not like they ever extracted taxes from most of the natives living in the amazon jungle. Saying that you rule over people that have literally never heard of you is, IMO, stretching the definition of "rule" quite a bit :-)

Since when is taxing all subjects a necessity? Britain didn't tax people in the 13 colonies so could we conclude that before the American Revolution they were not part of the British Empire?

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#18
post #2

It would be interesting to imagine a uchronic world where Portuguese has become the lingua franca of the world.

You would first have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of the iberian peninsula. Hard to imagine. Passing that hurdle, then you'd have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of western europe. Hard to imagine that. Then of europe as a whole and so on. Almost a joke now. Portuguese was never the major power of it's immediate vicinity, let alone the world. Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glori…

There is a very good reason why Portugal and the Netherlands were so similar, in this regard!

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would first have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of the iberian peninsula. Hard to imagine. Passing that hurdle, then you'd have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of western europe. Hard to imagine that. Then of europe as a whole and so on. Almost a joke now. Portuguese was never the major power of it's immediate vicinity, let alone the world. Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glori…

I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in wha…

> The Portuguese Empire did exist but AFAIK never did aspire to world hegemony like the U.K

Every time I meet a laid back, easy going and kind Portuguese person — which is most of them — I always think that explains their relatively unambitious world domination plans.

Re: Portugal: The First Global Empire (2015)

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would first have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of the iberian peninsula. Hard to imagine. Passing that hurdle, then you'd have to imagine portuguese being the lingua franca of western europe. Hard to imagine that. Then of europe as a whole and so on. Almost a joke now. Portuguese was never the major power of it's immediate vicinity, let alone the world. Portugual, like the netherlands, was a glori…

I think the comparison with the Netherlands is generally appropriate, but we must recognize that what they did in Brazil was exceptional (meaning not comparable to their former possessions in Asia and Africa, a difference from the mere trading nodes) and the NL never did achieve anything like it. The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in wha…

> the NL never did achieve anything like it.

> The Portuguese managed to maintain territorial integrity and make their religion and language dominate it entirely, in what's today the 5th largest nation state by area. They also had to defend the longest coastline.

Conquering multiple ethnic Malay kingdoms - a number of whom were armed and backed by the Ottomans, Mughals, and Americans and had access to gunpowders, naval yards, literacy, and proto-industrialization - and unifying them into Indonesia is a Herculean task that I'd argue is much more complex than the Portuguese project in Brazil.

Post reply on HN