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BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

batteryuniversity.com

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Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#11

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

user_7832 wrote: post #6

+1 for battery university, they're an excellent source. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similarly technically deep (while approachable) articles on any other facet consumer electronics? My understanding from this article is that: 1. Charge the battery to as low a max percentage as possible (till about 65%) 2. Keep it as cool as possible (up to zero degrees C at least) 3. Use it as little as possible before…

> Do EV manufacturers use any other tricks not covered by this?

Automotive EE here. EV aren’t ready for world wide use. That statement is constantly ignored by people in California who see zero issues with their new expensive fancy cars.

Shortest version… The heating and cooling systems of the battery are there to prevent damage. BUT… who powers the heating and cooling systems? The battery of course.

In a traditional or better yet a plugin hybrid, you can use the gas engine to control how much electric you are using in conditions that would be harmful to the battery. In EV vehicles you have no choice. The car won’t tell you “you can’t drive right now”.

The marketing of EVs was a mistake, and every mfg is paying for it. Ford taking a 2 billion write off this year on their EV line and canceling a lot of their vehicles.

They will be cool, but this generation makes a great second vehicle or town vehicle. Absolutely not an extreme weather highway vehicle.

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#12

Post by user_7832 »

stavros wrote: post #8
user_7832 wrote: post #6

+1 for battery university, they're an excellent source. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similarly technically deep (while approachable) articles on any other facet consumer electronics? My understanding from this article is that: 1. Charge the battery to as low a max percentage as possible (till about 65%) 2. Keep it as cool as possible (up to zero degrees C at least) 3. Use it as little as possible before…

I don't think this advice is useful. You're going to use your devices, so you won't control the temperature or, largely, the charge percentage. I think good advice is to keep your devices as cool as you can (ie don't leave your cars in sunlight when there's shade), which you probably did anyway, and keep the battery between 20% and 80% as much as possible. If the battery is going to stay unused for a while, leave it…

> You're going to use your devices, so you won't control the temperature or, largely, the charge percentage.

> I think good advice is to keep your devices as cool as you can (...), and keep the battery between 20% and 80% as much as possible.

Yeah that's kinda what I meant. Where it's easy or possible to do so (for eg lots of modern laptops & phones allow charge limits), it's better to follow these guidelines.

> Batteries are ultimately consumables, so don't stress too much. Just care for them as much as convenient, and that's it.

Yeah I agree (and that's what I meant by my last sentence), however, a lot of people (including eg my dad!) end up having battery issues while being unaware that they can do things to protect their hardware.

For example, my phone has enough capacity to last the whole day even at 60% of it's capacity. I've set it to stop charging at 80% (the lowest possible SOC) for this reason. On my laptop, I frequently reduce it to 60% as I use it plugged in.

> I don't think this advice is useful.

I'm afraid I don't get what's not helpful? We're probably talking across each other.

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#13

Post by user_7832 »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #11
user_7832 wrote: post #6

+1 for battery university, they're an excellent source. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similarly technically deep (while approachable) articles on any other facet consumer electronics? My understanding from this article is that: 1. Charge the battery to as low a max percentage as possible (till about 65%) 2. Keep it as cool as possible (up to zero degrees C at least) 3. Use it as little as possible before…

> Do EV manufacturers use any other tricks not covered by this? Automotive EE here. EV aren’t ready for world wide use. That statement is constantly ignored by people in California who see zero issues with their new expensive fancy cars. Shortest version… The heating and cooling systems of the battery are there to prevent damage. BUT… who powers the heating and cooling systems? The battery of course. In a traditional…

> EV aren’t ready for world wide use.

Fully agree (I'm 100% team PHEV or EREV/REEV) as a mechanical engineer. IMO BEVs and PHEVs/REEVs should be on parity in terms of tax/govt incentives, while encouraging electric use - for eg, subsidized (PH)EV charging, high(er) costs in city centres if running in ICE mode, etc.

I was just curious if EV manufacturers use any other tricks that're "well known" in EV-land but not for the average consumer.

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#14

Post by stavros »

user_7832 wrote: post #12
stavros wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this advice is useful. You're going to use your devices, so you won't control the temperature or, largely, the charge percentage. I think good advice is to keep your devices as cool as you can (ie don't leave your cars in sunlight when there's shade), which you probably did anyway, and keep the battery between 20% and 80% as much as possible. If the battery is going to stay unused for a while, leave it…

> You're going to use your devices, so you won't control the temperature or, largely, the charge percentage. > I think good advice is to keep your devices as cool as you can (...), and keep the battery between 20% and 80% as much as possible. Yeah that's kinda what I meant. Where it's easy or possible to do so (for eg lots of modern laptops & phones allow charge limits), it's better to follow these guidelines. > Batt…

It came across to me as "keep your batteries always under 0 C", which obviously almost nobody can do, and it leads to a sense of "eh, I won't go to these lengths, might as well do nothing", which is counterproductive.

I see the same reaction with healthy eating, where people are so put off by extremely militant advice that they think "I can't eat only vegetables all day, fuck it, I'll eat these three cheeseburgers".

I agree with your second comment, the first one just could be misconstrued as very hard-to-follow advice.

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#15

Post by kanbankaren »

user_7832 wrote: post #13
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do EV manufacturers use any other tricks not covered by this? Automotive EE here. EV aren’t ready for world wide use. That statement is constantly ignored by people in California who see zero issues with their new expensive fancy cars. Shortest version… The heating and cooling systems of the battery are there to prevent damage. BUT… who powers the heating and cooling systems? The battery of course. In a traditional…

> EV aren’t ready for world wide use. Fully agree (I'm 100% team PHEV or EREV/REEV) as a mechanical engineer. IMO BEVs and PHEVs/REEVs should be on parity in terms of tax/govt incentives, while encouraging electric use - for eg, subsidized (PH)EV charging, high(er) costs in city centres if running in ICE mode, etc. I was just curious if EV manufacturers use any other tricks that're "well known" in EV-land but not for…

AFAIK, they charge only to 4.0 V. I think the batteries on satellites are also charged only to 4.0 V

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#16

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

JamesTRexx wrote: post #2

After the first battery of my Samsung S4 expanded at the end of its life in less than 2 years, I found a utility that didn't work perfectly but could limit charge anywhere between 30 to 100% most of the time, and it prolonged the lifetime of the couple of later batteries during the 10+ years I used the phone with a limit around 66%. I was glad to see my new Samsung XCover 7 has a built-in option to limit charge to 80…

> although a flaky usb cable could sometimes overcharge

The charge controller is in the phone. The cable and power supply have no bearing on when charging is terminated. Android has an "optimized charging" option where it will charge above 80% shortly before it predicts you are likely to unplug. Samsung may have meddled with this behavior but that isn't Android's fault.

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#17

Post by Filligree »

stavros wrote: post #14
user_7832 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're going to use your devices, so you won't control the temperature or, largely, the charge percentage. > I think good advice is to keep your devices as cool as you can (...), and keep the battery between 20% and 80% as much as possible. Yeah that's kinda what I meant. Where it's easy or possible to do so (for eg lots of modern laptops & phones allow charge limits), it's better to follow these guidelines. > Batt…

It came across to me as "keep your batteries always under 0 C", which obviously almost nobody can do, and it leads to a sense of "eh, I won't go to these lengths, might as well do nothing", which is counterproductive. I see the same reaction with healthy eating, where people are so put off by extremely militant advice that they think "I can't eat only vegetables all day, fuck it, I'll eat these three cheeseburgers".…

That's backwards. At too low temperatures batteries start to take damage during discharge or (especially) charge, so 0C is the lowest temperature at which you should charge it. 5C would be better.

It's a concern mainly for e.g. offgrid batteries being used in the winter.

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#18

Post by stavros »

Filligree wrote: post #17
stavros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It came across to me as "keep your batteries always under 0 C", which obviously almost nobody can do, and it leads to a sense of "eh, I won't go to these lengths, might as well do nothing", which is counterproductive. I see the same reaction with healthy eating, where people are so put off by extremely militant advice that they think "I can't eat only vegetables all day, fuck it, I'll eat these three cheeseburgers".…

That's backwards. At too low temperatures batteries start to take damage during discharge or (especially) charge, so 0C is the lowest temperature at which you should charge it. 5C would be better. It's a concern mainly for e.g. offgrid batteries being used in the winter.

I know, but "as cool as possible (up to zero degrees C at least)" is conflicting, and kind of means "below zero degrees".

Re: BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries (2023)

#19

Post by HPsquared »

user_7832 wrote: post #6

+1 for battery university, they're an excellent source. Does anyone have any other suggestions for similarly technically deep (while approachable) articles on any other facet consumer electronics? My understanding from this article is that: 1. Charge the battery to as low a max percentage as possible (till about 65%) 2. Keep it as cool as possible (up to zero degrees C at least) 3. Use it as little as possible before…

Light bulbs (including LEDs) are similar. If you use them at slightly lower then their maximum rating, things tend to last a LOT longer. The "Dubai lamp" uses this concept - oversized LEDs that are derated, and last a very long time (100k hours). You can do the same by buying oversized dimmable LEDs and simply turning down the brightness.
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