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Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

alleyinteractive.com

11–20 of 23 posts

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#11
"there actually aren't a lot of federal regulations that affect small businesses."

This is a seriously flawed statement. There are a rather large number, and worse, not one comprehensive list. It also matters what they classify you as. There is a current case where a airport is classified as a mining operation because they are going to sell the coal removed when they put in a new runway. Doing a kickstarter and buying materials from overseas, good luck. We ignore most of them up until the point we are made aware by a man with a badge or a lawyer.

Well, I know a fair amount of farmers that are scared about Jan 1, if the estate tax reverts and some startups should be too. http://www.mtpioneer.com/2012-January-Estate-Taxes.html

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#12
"Tech" small businesses are doing just fine. And they represent only a tiny fraction of small businesses, probably even more so when you measure by employment, which is what people tend to care about.

As someone who has cofounded both a tech company and a traditional bricks-and-mortar small business, I can assure you that the traditional small business has slogged through copious red tape. It's true that much of it is state and local, rather than federal, but that's small comfort.

You might think that a reasonably smart person should be able to independently figure out how to pay a dozen employees without accidentally breaking the law and getting fined. You would be wrong.

The payroll processing industry doesn't exist because it's hard to write checks. They exist because it's absurdly difficult for a non-specialist to be compliant without expending disproportionate effort.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#13
post #3

1) Is a-sort-of strawman. Gov't regulations are required for all markets to function absent fraud & violence. So, obviously at that level of abstraction, yes its a truism. There would be no legal business entity period, for example, without a government law outlining the legality of a "legal business entity"...etc. 2) The avoidance of C-corps has to do with double taxation and high-marginal rates on the second level…

    2) The avoidance of C-corps has to do with double taxation and
    high-marginal rates on the second level of taxation. So, again,
    this analysis is flawed. The absence of C-corps is evidence that
    the tax rate/s in fact makes them un-economic and thus illogical
    to bring into existence.
Exactly right. A good tax system would provide limited tax advantages (or maybe even added costs) to filing as a pass-thru entity, allowing companies to use the appropriate tax structure, and help make policy appropriately targeted for businesses vs. individuals.

Obama's business tax blueprint explicitly addresses this:

    (iii) Distorting the form of businesses.

    Business may be organized under a variety of different forms,
    including C-corporations, S-corporations,  partnerships, and
    sole-proprietorships. These organizational forms offer varying
    legal, regulatory, and tax treatments. The primary difference in
    tax treatment between C-corporations, on the one hand, and 
    S-corporations, partnerships, and sole-proprietorships, on the
    other, is applicability of the corporate income  tax. C-corporations
    are subject to the corporate tax, while pass-through entities are
    not.

    The combined effect of this varying tax treatment has contributed
    to a lower effective tax rate for pass-through entities relative to
    C-corporations. The effective marginal tax rate on new investment
    by C-corporations is now 32.3 percent, while the effective marginal
    tax rate on new investment by passthrough businesses 26.4
    percent.

    ...

    The ability of large pass-through entities to take advantage of
    preferential tax treatment has placed businesses organizing as
    C-corporations at a disadvantage. By allowing large pass-through
    entities preferential treatment, the tax code distorts choices of
    organizational form, which can lead to losses in economic efficiency;
    business managers should make choices about organizational form
    based on criteria other than tax treatment.

    ...

    Reduce the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 28 percent.
    This reduction in the rate would put the United States in line with
    other advanced countries, help encourage greater investment in the
    United States, and reduce the tax-related economic distortions
    discussed above.
As a person who has just spent a bunch of time deciding on my form of business, I consider the S-Corp option to, in fact, be distortive (and costly, from a time and accounting cost perspective). I am glad that this discussion is happening in policy circles, and that Obama explicitly addresses it in his blueprint, even though it is not really part of the public discussion.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#14
post #10

What a strange article. Clearly he's writing from the perspective of "small technology firms", so why extrapolate his perception of how regulation affects his industry with all industries? Please, Matt, speak to someone trying to run a business in the "more conventional trades" and see how government regulations hurt them. That is if you can find any such small businesses in the areas that federal government regulati…

You just discredited his opinion by stating that his perspective isn't an accurate depiction of regulatory issues for small businesses. Then you went and made your argument siting regulatory problems for small banks.

You discount an argument as anecdotal and not applicable and then support your argument with another anecdote.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#15
post #14
post #10

What a strange article. Clearly he's writing from the perspective of "small technology firms", so why extrapolate his perception of how regulation affects his industry with all industries? Please, Matt, speak to someone trying to run a business in the "more conventional trades" and see how government regulations hurt them. That is if you can find any such small businesses in the areas that federal government regulati…

You just discredited his opinion by stating that his perspective isn't an accurate depiction of regulatory issues for small businesses. Then you went and made your argument siting regulatory problems for small banks. You discount an argument as anecdotal and not applicable and then support your argument with another anecdote.

If you claim X =/= 1,2,3,4, or 5 and I show that X can equal 3, I have discredited your claim.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#16
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just discredited his opinion by stating that his perspective isn't an accurate depiction of regulatory issues for small businesses. Then you went and made your argument siting regulatory problems for small banks. You discount an argument as anecdotal and not applicable and then support your argument with another anecdote.

If you claim X =/= 1,2,3,4, or 5 and I show that X can equal 3, I have discredited your claim.

In math. Writing public policy to address anecdotal or individual cases is an awful way of writing public policy.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#17
post #13
post #3

1) Is a-sort-of strawman. Gov't regulations are required for all markets to function absent fraud & violence. So, obviously at that level of abstraction, yes its a truism. There would be no legal business entity period, for example, without a government law outlining the legality of a "legal business entity"...etc. 2) The avoidance of C-corps has to do with double taxation and high-marginal rates on the second level…

2) The avoidance of C-corps has to do with double taxation and high-marginal rates on the second level of taxation. So, again, this analysis is flawed. The absence of C-corps is evidence that the tax rate/s in fact makes them un-economic and thus illogical to bring into existence. Exactly right. A good tax system would provide limited tax advantages (or maybe even added costs) to filing as a pass-thru entity, allowin…

Don't bother reading that. All politicians lies. Come November that isn't worth the bytes used to transfer the text.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#18
post #13
post #3

1) Is a-sort-of strawman. Gov't regulations are required for all markets to function absent fraud & violence. So, obviously at that level of abstraction, yes its a truism. There would be no legal business entity period, for example, without a government law outlining the legality of a "legal business entity"...etc. 2) The avoidance of C-corps has to do with double taxation and high-marginal rates on the second level…

2) The avoidance of C-corps has to do with double taxation and high-marginal rates on the second level of taxation. So, again, this analysis is flawed. The absence of C-corps is evidence that the tax rate/s in fact makes them un-economic and thus illogical to bring into existence. Exactly right. A good tax system would provide limited tax advantages (or maybe even added costs) to filing as a pass-thru entity, allowin…

[deleted]

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#19
post #8
post #5

This doesn't apply to startups, which are always set up as C corporations. Most businesses are set up as S corp or LLC to avoid our broken corporate tax system/double taxation. The high corporate tax rate obviously encourages entrepreneurs to pass profits through to themselves rather than keep it in the business and grow the company.

startups not always set up as C corporations--for instance, if you expect it to be several years before you reach any profitability (happens a lot in biotech), you set up as an LLC to flow losses through to investors for tax purposes. most of these convert to c-corps upon profitability or if there's going to be a major financing event.

This might be differet for unsophisticated investors, but I've never seen an experienced technology investor invest in anything other than a C corp.

In any case, investors don't want losses to flow through to them. They want losses carried forward to reduce the company's tax liabilty in the future.

Re: Why both Obama and Romney are wrong on small tech business

#20
post #19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

startups not always set up as C corporations--for instance, if you expect it to be several years before you reach any profitability (happens a lot in biotech), you set up as an LLC to flow losses through to investors for tax purposes. most of these convert to c-corps upon profitability or if there's going to be a major financing event.

This might be differet for unsophisticated investors, but I've never seen an experienced technology investor invest in anything other than a C corp. In any case, investors don't want losses to flow through to them. They want losses carried forward to reduce the company's tax liabilty in the future.

Depends on the investor, especially if it's an angel group vs. fund. lots of angels want to receive the initial benefit of losses.
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