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The guide to real-world EV battery health

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Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#11

Post by closewith »

cogman10 wrote: post #7
Etheryte wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

Bike > walk == public transit > used EV > new EV > used ICE > new ICE That's pretty much the order of "greenness" in personal transport. New EVs will pay off their added carbon footprint in roughly 1 or 2 years in most locations. The ultimate determining factor of how fast that is the energy mix of your local power generation. The only time it'd probably be better to continue using an ICE is if that ICE is a moped or…

Those must be US estimates involving huge mileage, because - taking your existing ICE car's production emissions as an already sunk cost - replacing an existing ICE with a new EV would over a decade of driving the average EU mileage (~10k km) before reaching emissions parity.

It takes 2-4 years of that mileage alone for a new EV to reach lifetime emissions parity with a new ICE in the EU (which I know is longer than the US due to the vast differences in average emissions per vehicle between the two continents).

For most of the world, the GP is correct. Driving whatever car you have will always be more environmentally friendly than buying a new EV. Reduce and reuse are environmental cornerstones for a reason.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#12

Post by jeffbee »

epistasis wrote: post #6
Etheryte wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they a…

It is true though, in some cases. The embodied carbon of a Rivian for example is never paid back by operations. So you do have to exercise good judgement in which EV you choose. The category doesn't always win.

In my case I already own a hybrid that I only drive 2000 mi/yr and there is not yet an EV that I could buy with so little embodied carbon that it would make sense to do so. At the rate China is decarbonizing, presumably the embodied carbon of their EVs will soon be minimal, but not yet.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#13

Post by closewith »

dangus wrote: post #8
epistasis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolutely untrue. The majority of the environmental damage is from the ongoing use of it, not from production. Every time you fill up on 20 gallons of gas, that is 400 pounds of CO2 that will be dumped into the air. Used EVs are apparently very cheap. Most new cars are prohibitively expensive, the average new car cost is something like $50k now in the US. If anybody is concerned about cost of new cars, they a…

To add to this, almost nobody statistically keeps their vehicle very long. People keeping a car for 20-30 years is extremely rare. The median length of car ownership is something like 7 years. Even if you are switching between used cars, most people are switching vehicles at some point. From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a cou…

The EU average passenger car fleet age is 12.5 years.

> From what I understand even considering battery mining and using dirty electrical generation, you’re still at breakeven within a couple years of driving with an EV.

Only when compared to buying a new ICE, as it takes 1-2 years average mileage in the US and 2-4 years in the EU for a new EV to reach emissions parity with a new ICE. It takes well over a decade in the EU for a new EV to recover it's production emissions va driving an existing used ICE. It's never environmentally friendly to scrap an ICE for a new EV.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#14

Post by tom86150 »

Etheryte wrote: post #3
singinishi wrote: post #2

Tesla does their own with real world data. It’s a non-issue. Save the planet. Stop making excuses and get an EV.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

[dead]

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#15

Post by dangus »

nritchie wrote: post #9

Hopefully, in coming years, we will see more practically designed EVs that are more affordable. A practical car doesn't need neck-snapping acceleration, every bell-and-whistle and room for a family of six with a dog. I'd like to believe that as batteries cost drop, the incentive to justify the extra cost will drop. Then we can get back to "just basic transportation" rather than a luxury product for the rich. While $3…

At this point most EVs are exactly the way you describe and Tesla is an outlier.

Look at Hyundai/Kia’s lineup. The Niro, EV6, and EV9 are essentially the three major segments of American car preferences. They aren’t particularly fast or exotic.

They don’t really cost a whole lot more to buy/own than alternatives in the same segment especially on a monthly payment or buying one used, they just aren’t chosen at a high rate compared to gas powered alternatives.

Tesla just used the neck-snapping acceleration to market EVs by cool factor rather than by economics. And that was a smart idea to get people in showrooms.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#16

Post by linsomniac »

singinishi wrote: post #4
Etheryte wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

All the oil and gas is killing the planet. Even the gas fumes are killing you when you fill up. The sooner the better. There are lots of low cost EVs out there, especially when you factor in there’s no maintenance.

The maintenance factor seems to often be overlooked. The amount of time I've put into EV maintenance in the last decade is about the same as I've put into my two ICE cars, but I drive them 1/10th as much. It's really, really nice, and I don't think dealer service departments are ready for a massive switch to EV.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#17

Post by neogodless »

singinishi wrote: post #4
Etheryte wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

All the oil and gas is killing the planet. Even the gas fumes are killing you when you fill up. The sooner the better. There are lots of low cost EVs out there, especially when you factor in there’s no maintenance.

Mostly agree but own an EV. "No" maintenance is an exaggeration and it's not necessary to make your point.

My car's first set of tires were very bald at 25,000 miles. That's not unusual on new cars in general as they seem to come from the factory with low longevity tires, but it's still quite a short tire life.

Yes anything in a gasoline engine is gone, and brakes get less use.

But there are still maintenance items.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#18

Post by boplicity »

nritchie wrote: post #9

Hopefully, in coming years, we will see more practically designed EVs that are more affordable. A practical car doesn't need neck-snapping acceleration, every bell-and-whistle and room for a family of six with a dog. I'd like to believe that as batteries cost drop, the incentive to justify the extra cost will drop. Then we can get back to "just basic transportation" rather than a luxury product for the rich. While $3…

Affordable EVs exist and are widely available in some countries. They're effectively banned in North America, though.

Re: The guide to real-world EV battery health

#19

Post by _ea1k »

Etheryte wrote: post #3
singinishi wrote: post #2

Tesla does their own with real world data. It’s a non-issue. Save the planet. Stop making excuses and get an EV.

While buying an EV is a greener choice than buying an ICE, a better option still is to use the vehicle you already have for as long as reasonable. This also overlooks the fact that EVs are prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of the population. It isn't the case that people aren't buying them because of preference. Nearly everyone would buy a car that's cheaper to run and maintain if they could afford it.

Plenty of people that can afford them and that would likely benefit are not buying them because of preference.

In many cases, this is rational. Yeah, a used Model 3 with a great rate plan is probably worth it as a commuter, but what if you are an outlier? Even a low battery failure rate can be a risk, and extended warranties are expensive.

But also, some of it is irrational, as the FB comments effectively feed many false fear driven narratives.

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