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Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

lalitm.com

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Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#11

Post by moron4hire »

bossyTeacher wrote: post #8
ajkjk wrote: post #4

Letting it die is the self-serving, career-optimizing, amoral take. But it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding. Of course, the wisdom of taking the person risk is a continuum. In some cases it is and in some it isn't. But.. To omit the ethical angle entirely seems like a bad take…

> it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. Employment is a business transaction not a transaction based on ethics viewpoints

Just because there's no law saying you have to have ethics in software development doesn't mean you shouldn't have ethics in software development.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#12

Post by DetroitThrow »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

>If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up than to quietly watch a train wreck unfold.

Yes, it seems cruel and also counter to ensuring the org succeeds. Your perceived ability as an engineer might go up if your colleagues fail, but your colleagues failing when you knew a possible way for things to go better is harmful to your org's goals and culture. It only takes a small few failures for the bar to be lowered to the point that you yourself may not want to work there.

Even sometimes when other people's projects are NOT your problem and they aren't seeking feedback, sometimes you SHOULD make their flaws your problem if it is of crucial importance to your org. Knowing when you should expend your energy on an initiative like that is in itself a mark of seniority.

The blog itself mentions this a bit.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#13

Post by dzink »

If one person thinks this way, many more do. This is typical in large organizations, especially government institutions, because expense of running entire teams at massive costs for no reason is not born by the team but by someone with a much larger budget that has more money than care or completely wrong incentives (the more people I manage, the more important I am, type of orgs). This is organizational gangrene described from the inside and partly how or why it happens. If you are leading an organization and reading this - figure out how to measure and prevent it.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#14

Post by racl101 »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

I think this is the best take. If you know better speak up (assuming you don't get penalized for that). But anytime you feel the pain, refrain. Don't carry the weight of the world upon your shoulders. You spoke up and if they did not heed your advice that's not your problem.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#15

Post by omgJustTest »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

The point the author is making is somewhat maligned by the title "... let bad projects fail".

The point the author makes is that sometimes you are not in control of those projects. Therefore "letting them fail" seems a false choice constructed by the author.

A better title "You don't know what other people are doing and you don't know why unless it is your job to do so."

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#16

Post by zem »

DetroitThrow wrote: post #12
tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

>If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up than to quietly watch a train wreck unfold. Yes, it seems cruel and also counter to ensuring the org succeeds. Your perceived ability as an engineer might go up if your colleagues fail, but your colleagues failing when you…

i think the OP is sadly dead right - no one will remember you as the person who tried to save them from a mistake, they will remember you as a "source of negativity". the more senior they are they more likely this is, because they will think they know better and not hear what you are saying, merely that it was negative.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#17

Post by aaronbrethorst »

I have to question the judgment of the manager talking shit about another team and its leader to a junior engineer. Going and looking at the author's LinkedIn history (it's available via his About page) makes it pretty clear that this was happening within Google.

I think it speaks poorly of their manager's professionalism, and what sort of behavior they consider to be acceptable with regard to colleagues.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#18

Post by ossa-ma »

Excellent advice for the 'House of Cards' politics of big tech, but it’s essentially corporate pacifism.

In any other setting you can't afford to watch money and motivation burn just to stay 'politically solvent'.

(Lalit is very good at fitting complex corporate dynamics in a single blog post though.)

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#19

Post by tyleo »

DetroitThrow wrote: post #12
tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

>If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up than to quietly watch a train wreck unfold. Yes, it seems cruel and also counter to ensuring the org succeeds. Your perceived ability as an engineer might go up if your colleagues fail, but your colleagues failing when you…

Agreed. If you see repeated failures and think it’s “career optimizing” to not offer advice, you should instead consider whether it’s worth optimizing a career in that org.

There are places where this doesn’t happen and I’d argue you learn a lot more at them.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#20

Post by bossyTeacher »

tyleo wrote: post #5
ajkjk wrote: post #4

Letting it die is the self-serving, career-optimizing, amoral take. But it's more ethical to stand up for what's right even at personal cost. A bunch of people wasting years of their life, not to mention all the resources, is a tragedy worth avoiding. Of course, the wisdom of taking the person risk is a continuum. In some cases it is and in some it isn't. But.. To omit the ethical angle entirely seems like a bad take…

Honestly, I don’t even know that letting it die is self serving except at big companies which can suffer repeated failures. Depending on scale, a couple large train wrecks may take the company out and leave you unemployed.

If the company is 'one dev ignoring a bad project heading to failure' away from bankruptcy, you should have accepted a job offer somewhere else last year.
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