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A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

theverge.com

11–20 of 74 posts

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#11
post #5

The ultimate problem is that it's easy to fake stuff so you have to use heuristics to see who you can trust. You sort of sum up your threat score and then decide how much attention to apply. Without doing something like that, the transaction costs dominate and certain valuable things can't be done. It's true that Western universities are generally a positive component to that score and students under a professor ther…

No, random anonymous contributors with cheng3920845823@gmail.com as their email address are not as trustworthy as your wife, and blindly merging PRs from them into some of the most security-critical and widely used code in the entire world without so much as running a static analyzer is not reasonable.

Oh I misunderstood the sections in the article about the umn.edu email stuff. My mistake. The actual course of events:

1. Prof and students make fake identities

2. They submit these secret vulns to Greg KH and friends

3. Some of these patches are accepted

4. They intervene at this point and reveal that the patches are malicious

5. The patches are then not merged

6. This news comes out and Greg KH applies big negative trust score to umn.edu

7. Some other student submits a buggy patch to Greg KH

8. Greg KH assumes that it is more research like this

9. Student calls it slander

10. Greg KH institutes policy for his tree that all umn.edu patches should be auto-rejected and begins reverts for all patches submitted in the past by such emails

To be honest, I can't imagine any other such outcome could have occurred. No one likes being cheated out of work that they did, especially when a lot of it is volunteer work. But I was wrong to say the research was useless. It does demonstrate that identities without provenance can get malicious code into the kernel.

Perhaps what we really need is a Social Credit Score for OSS ;)

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#13

Woah, the thing that leapt out at me, as a professor, is that they somehow got an exemption from the UMN institutional review board. Uh, how?? It's clearly human subjects research under the conventional federal definition[1] and obviously posed a meaningful risk of harm, in addition to being conducted deceptively. Someone has to have massively been asleep at the wheel at that IRB. [1] https://grants.nih.gov/policy-an…

A reteroactive exception!

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, random anonymous contributors with cheng3920845823@gmail.com as their email address are not as trustworthy as your wife, and blindly merging PRs from them into some of the most security-critical and widely used code in the entire world without so much as running a static analyzer is not reasonable.

Oh I misunderstood the sections in the article about the umn.edu email stuff. My mistake. The actual course of events: 1. Prof and students make fake identities 2. They submit these secret vulns to Greg KH and friends 3. Some of these patches are accepted 4. They intervene at this point and reveal that the patches are malicious 5. The patches are then not merged 6. This news comes out and Greg KH applies big negative…

> 3. Some of these patches are accepted

> 4. They intervene at this point and reveal that the patches are malicious

> 5. The patches are then not merged

It's not clear to me that they revealed anything, just that they did fix the problems:

> In their paper, Lu and Wu claimed that none of their bugs had actually made it to the Linux kernel — in all of their test cases, they’d eventually pulled their bad patches and provided real ones. Kroah-Hartman, of the Linux Foundation, contests this — he told The Verge that one patch from the study did make it into repositories, though he notes it didn’t end up causing any harm.

(I'm only working from this article, though, so feel free to correct me)

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#15
post #2

(2021) Discussion at the time (3025 points, 1954 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887670

Fun fact: one of the researchers removed any reference to this from their publications page: https://www-users.cse.umn.edu/~kjlu/

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#16
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, random anonymous contributors with cheng3920845823@gmail.com as their email address are not as trustworthy as your wife, and blindly merging PRs from them into some of the most security-critical and widely used code in the entire world without so much as running a static analyzer is not reasonable.

Oh I misunderstood the sections in the article about the umn.edu email stuff. My mistake. The actual course of events: 1. Prof and students make fake identities 2. They submit these secret vulns to Greg KH and friends 3. Some of these patches are accepted 4. They intervene at this point and reveal that the patches are malicious 5. The patches are then not merged 6. This news comes out and Greg KH applies big negative…

Actually, I think #7 is one of the same students working for the professor. So GKH is correct in assuming it's more of the same.

Research can be non-useless but also unethical at the same time...

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#17
post #2

(2021) Discussion at the time (3025 points, 1954 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26887670

The authors were 100% in the right, and GKH was 100% in the wrong. It's very amusing to go back and read all of the commenters calling for the paper authors to face criminal prosecution. The fact is that they provided a valuable service and exposed a genuine issue with kernel development policies. Their work reflected poorly on kernel maintainers, and so those maintainers threw a hissy fit and brigaded the community…

I mean...there is a whole discussion about the questionable ethics of the research methods in the verge article. And human subjects and issues-of-consent questions aside, they are also messing with a mission critical system (linux kernel), and apparently left crappy code in there for all the maintainers to go back and weed out.

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#18
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authors were 100% in the right, and GKH was 100% in the wrong. It's very amusing to go back and read all of the commenters calling for the paper authors to face criminal prosecution. The fact is that they provided a valuable service and exposed a genuine issue with kernel development policies. Their work reflected poorly on kernel maintainers, and so those maintainers threw a hissy fit and brigaded the community…

I mean...there is a whole discussion about the questionable ethics of the research methods in the verge article. And human subjects and issues-of-consent questions aside, they are also messing with a mission critical system (linux kernel), and apparently left crappy code in there for all the maintainers to go back and weed out.

1) once hypocrite commits were accepted, the authors would immediately retract them

2) I don't think it's unethical to send someone an email that has bad code in it. You shouldn't need an IRB to send emails.

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#19
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I misunderstood the sections in the article about the umn.edu email stuff. My mistake. The actual course of events: 1. Prof and students make fake identities 2. They submit these secret vulns to Greg KH and friends 3. Some of these patches are accepted 4. They intervene at this point and reveal that the patches are malicious 5. The patches are then not merged 6. This news comes out and Greg KH applies big negative…

> 3. Some of these patches are accepted > 4. They intervene at this point and reveal that the patches are malicious > 5. The patches are then not merged It's not clear to me that they revealed anything, just that they did fix the problems: > In their paper, Lu and Wu claimed that none of their bugs had actually made it to the Linux kernel — in all of their test cases, they’d eventually pulled their bad patches and pr…

I don't believe they revealed that they were hypocrite commits at the time of their acceptance, that was only revealed when the paper was put on a preprint server. But they did point out the problems to maintainers before the changes were mainlined.

Re: A university got itself banned from the Linux kernel (2021)

#20

Woah, the thing that leapt out at me, as a professor, is that they somehow got an exemption from the UMN institutional review board. Uh, how?? It's clearly human subjects research under the conventional federal definition[1] and obviously posed a meaningful risk of harm, in addition to being conducted deceptively. Someone has to have massively been asleep at the wheel at that IRB. [1] https://grants.nih.gov/policy-an…

I think they should have gotten permission from IRB ahead of time, but this doesn't sound like they were researching human subjects? They were studying the community behind the Linux kernel, and specifically the process for gatekeeping bad changes from making it to the kernel; they weren't experimenting on specific community members. Would you consider it human experimentation if I was running an experiment to see if I could get crappy products listed on Amazon, for example?
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