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My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

matthewrocklin.com

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Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#11

Post by tsukikage »

deergomoo wrote: post #2

I will never as long as I live understand the argument that AI development is more fun. If you want to argue that you’re more capable or whatever, fine. I disagree but I don’t have any data to disprove you. But saying that AI development is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer” is, to me, the same as saying you’re really into painting but you’re not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone…

> is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer”

Indeed, of all the possible things to say!

AI "development" /is/ wrestling the computer. It is the opposite of the old-fashioned kind of development where the computer does exactly what you told it to. To get an AI to actually do what I want and nothing else is an incredibly painful, repetitive, confrontational process.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#12

Post by sodapopcan »

deergomoo wrote: post #2

I will never as long as I live understand the argument that AI development is more fun. If you want to argue that you’re more capable or whatever, fine. I disagree but I don’t have any data to disprove you. But saying that AI development is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer” is, to me, the same as saying you’re really into painting but you’re not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone…

Seems some people I know who really like AI aren't particularly good with their editors. Lots of AI zealots use the "learn your tools" when they are very slow with their editors. I'm sure that's not true across the board, but the sentiment that it's not worth it to get really advanced with your editor has been pretty prevalent for a very long time.

I don't care if you use AI but leave me alone. I'm plenty fast without it and enjoy the process this author callously calls "wrestling with computers."

Of course this isn't going to help with the whole "making me fast at things I don't know" but that's another can of worms.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#13

Post by harles »

deergomoo wrote: post #2

I will never as long as I live understand the argument that AI development is more fun. If you want to argue that you’re more capable or whatever, fine. I disagree but I don’t have any data to disprove you. But saying that AI development is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer” is, to me, the same as saying you’re really into painting but you’re not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone…

~20 years working in tech for me, mostly big companies, and I’ve never been more miserable. I also can’t stop myself from using Claude Code and the like.

I think it’s a bit like a gambling addiction. I’m riding high the few times it pays off, but most of the time it feels like it’s just on the edge of paying off (working) and surely the next prompt will push it over the edge.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#14

Post by deergomoo »

quotemstr wrote: post #4
deergomoo wrote: post #2

I will never as long as I live understand the argument that AI development is more fun. If you want to argue that you’re more capable or whatever, fine. I disagree but I don’t have any data to disprove you. But saying that AI development is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer” is, to me, the same as saying you’re really into painting but you’re not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone…

> not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone to paint what you describe. That’s not doing, it’s commissioning. What if I have a block of marble and a vision for the statue struggling from inside it and I use an industrial CNC lathe to do my marble carving for me. Have I sculpted something? Am I an artist? What if I'm an architect? Brunelleschi didn't personally lay all the bricks for his famous dome in Flore…

I would call the designing of the building art, yes. But I wouldn’t call it construction.

I would also call designing a system to be fed into an LLM designing. But I wouldn’t call it programming.

If people are more into the design and system architecture side of development, I of course have no problem with that.

What I do find baffling, as per my original comment, is all the people saying basically “programming is way more fun now I don’t have to do it”. Did you even actually like programming to begin with then?

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#15

Post by emseetech »

CharlesW wrote: post #5

I get vibe-coders not having a good experience once the honeymoon is over. But I'm fascinated that a professional software developer could have such a different experience than I do. • LLMs generate junk • LLMs generate a lot of junk

My question is why use AI to output javascript or python?

Why not output everything in C and ASM for 500x performance? Why use high level languages meant to be easier for humans? Why not go right to the metal?

If anyone's ever tried this, it's clear why: AI is terrible at C and ASM. But that cuts into what AI is at its core: It's not actual programming, it's mechanical reproduction.

Which means its incapabilities in C and ASM don't disappear when using it for higher-level languages. They're still there, just temporarily smoothed over due to larger datasets.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#16

Post by kleinsch »

deergomoo wrote: post #2

I will never as long as I live understand the argument that AI development is more fun. If you want to argue that you’re more capable or whatever, fine. I disagree but I don’t have any data to disprove you. But saying that AI development is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer” is, to me, the same as saying you’re really into painting but you’re not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone…

AI lets you pick the parts you want to focus on and streamline the parts you don't. I get zero joy out of wrestling build tools or figuring out deploy scripts to get what I've built out onto a server. In the past side projects would stall out because the few hours per week I had would get consumed by all of the side stuff. Now I take care of that using AI and focus on the parts I want to write.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#17

Post by vorticalbox »

alfalfasprout wrote: post #6

For a senior engineer, some very odd takes here: "Our ability to zoom in and implement code is now obsolete Even with SOTA LLMs like Opus 4.5 this is downright untrue. Many, many logical, strategic, architectural, and low level code mistakes are still happening. And given context window limitations of LLMs (even with hacks like subagents to work around this) big picture long-term thinking about code design, structure…

LLMs also try and find short cuts to get the task done, for example I wrote some code (typescript) for work that had a lot of lint errors (I created a pretty strict rule set)

And I asked codex to fix them for me, first attempt was to add comments to disable the rules for the whole file and just mark everything as any.

Second attempt was to disable the rules in the eslint config.

It does the same with tests it will happily create a work around to avoid the issue rather than fix the issue.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#18

Post by briansteffens »

deergomoo wrote: post #2

I will never as long as I live understand the argument that AI development is more fun. If you want to argue that you’re more capable or whatever, fine. I disagree but I don’t have any data to disprove you. But saying that AI development is more fun because you don’t have to “wrestle the computer” is, to me, the same as saying you’re really into painting but you’re not really into the brush aspect so you pay someone…

There are some things that I think become more fun, like dealing with anything you don't actually find interesting. I recently made a quick little web app and I hand-coded the core logic since I find that part fun. But I vibe-coded the front-end, especially the CSS, because I just don't find that stuff very interesting and I'm less picky about the visuals. Letting the AI just do the boring parts for me made the overall project more fun I think.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#19

Post by switchbak »

alfalfasprout wrote: post #6

For a senior engineer, some very odd takes here: "Our ability to zoom in and implement code is now obsolete Even with SOTA LLMs like Opus 4.5 this is downright untrue. Many, many logical, strategic, architectural, and low level code mistakes are still happening. And given context window limitations of LLMs (even with hacks like subagents to work around this) big picture long-term thinking about code design, structure…

> Our ability to zoom in and implement code is now obsolete Even with SOTA LLMs like Opus 4.5 this is downright untrue. Many, many logical, strategic, architectural, and low level code mistakes are still happening. And given context window limitations of LLMs (even with hacks like subagents to work around this) big picture long-term thinking about code design, structure, extensibility, etc. is very tricky to do right.

> If you can't see this, I have to seriously question your competence as an engineer in the first place tbh.

I can't agree more strongly. I work with a number of folks who say concerning things along the lines of what you describe above (or just slightly less strong). The trust in a system that is not fully trustworthy is really shocking, but it only seems to come from a particular kind of person. It's hard to describe, but I'd describe it as: people that are less concerned with the contents of the code versus the behaviour of the program. It's a strange dichotomy, and surprising every time.

I mean, if you don't get the economics of a reasonably factored codebase vs one that's full of hacks and architecturally terrible compromises - you're in for a VERY bad time. Perhaps even a company-ending bad time. I've seen that happen in the old days, and I expect we're in the midst of seeing a giant wave of failures due to unsustainably maintained codebases. But we probably won't be able to tell, startups have been mostly failing the entire time.

Re: My article on why AI is great (or terrible) or how to use it

#20

Post by emseetech »

alfalfasprout wrote: post #10
CharlesW wrote: post #5

I get vibe-coders not having a good experience once the honeymoon is over. But I'm fascinated that a professional software developer could have such a different experience than I do. • LLMs generate junk • LLMs generate a lot of junk

Yeah... don't get me wrong I find a lot of value in these tools. They do help with a lot of the tedium, can be helpful as debugging assistants, and in the right hands (with the right oversight) can indeed generate solid code. But we are, even as of Opus 4.5, so wildly far away from what the author is suggesting. FWIW my experience is working in the AI/ML space at a major tech company and as a maintainer + contributor…

I use AI as a rubber duck to research my options, sanity-check my code before a PR, and give me a heads up on potential pain points going forward.

But I still write my own code. If I'm going to be responsible for it, I'm going to be the one who writes it.

It's my belief that velocity up front always comes at a cost down the line. That's been true for abstractions, for frameworks, for all kinds of time-saving tools. Sometimes that cost is felt quickly, as we've seen with vibe coding.

So I'm more interested in using AI in the research phase and to increase the breadth of what I can work on than to save time.

Over the course of a project, all approaches, even total hand-coding with no LLMs whatever, likely regress to the mean when it comes to hours worked. So I'd rather go with an approach that keeps me fully in control.

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