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Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

monthlyreview.org

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Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#11

Post by Lazare »

confluence wrote: post #4

Is there a word for market based socialism? You know capitalism with hair cut upside (taxation) and a hard floor protected low side (poverty). For example - in a developed world most people don't want anyone (lest themselves) to starve, be unable to afford an education for their children, be unemployed or be unable to access life saving healthcare. However we must also encourage innovation and hard work (don't cap up…

That's more or less what every Western country has, although we quibble about how expansive the safety net should be, and the optimal level of taxation. We often call this a "mixed" economy.

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#12

Post by soup10 »

The socialism vs capitalism debate is always super interesting. But I think from a practical standpoint, changes in technology seem to be far more achievable and impactful than fighting to change culture. The way I see history technology changes the world, and culture and society changes to keep up with it.

We all kind of understand this platonic ideal where everyone is happy, not overworked, and like or atleast don't resent their jobs. But our societies have gotten too big, complicated and interdependent. Life is far more complicated and necessarily imperfect these days. Not that I don't respect people fighting the good fight in the bowels of megacorps and governmental beauracracies to make things better. We owe a ton to idealists and do-gooders. But corporations and governments are machines, not people. A machine doesn't understand the concept of 'doing the right thing'. Our best hope in the quest for idealism is to accept that they are machines, and make them better or less important through new tech.

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#13

Post by confluence »

soup10 wrote: post #12

The socialism vs capitalism debate is always super interesting. But I think from a practical standpoint, changes in technology seem to be far more achievable and impactful than fighting to change culture. The way I see history technology changes the world, and culture and society changes to keep up with it. We all kind of understand this platonic ideal where everyone is happy, not overworked, and like or atleast don'…

Relevant: https://www.quora.com/Autonomous-Driving/With-autonomous-car...

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#14

Post by othermaciej »

confluence wrote: post #7
johngalt wrote: post #6

What if the needs of society and the needs of the individual are in opposition? Who works the coal mines in socialism's utopia?

Robots duh. Your name is John Galt - however your ideas are decidedly 18th century. You do realise that a great deal of work is now automated. Oh and libertarianism is just a tad lower at 3rd grade. Baby: Baby talk Me: If you walk all the way over here you can have this toy. Baby: Walks Takes toy Me: Woops, your little brother is here - why don't you share with him since he can't walk just yet. Baby: MINE! Me: Ok the…

Coal mines still employ a great deal of human laborers, even the few that are highly mechanized. And it's still difficult, dangerous and not very pleasant work. Most coal mining is still done underground and even surface mining is quite dangerous. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining>

It's also usually not a good idea to act condescending when you think you have superior knowledge, as then you may look foolish when it turns out you are misinformed yourself.

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#15

Post by confluence »

othermaciej wrote: post #14
confluence wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robots duh. Your name is John Galt - however your ideas are decidedly 18th century. You do realise that a great deal of work is now automated. Oh and libertarianism is just a tad lower at 3rd grade. Baby: Baby talk Me: If you walk all the way over here you can have this toy. Baby: Walks Takes toy Me: Woops, your little brother is here - why don't you share with him since he can't walk just yet. Baby: MINE! Me: Ok the…

Coal mines still employ a great deal of human laborers, even the few that are highly mechanized. And it's still difficult, dangerous and not very pleasant work. Most coal mining is still done underground and even surface mining is quite dangerous. See e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining&#62 ; It's also usually not a good idea to act condescending when you think you have superior knowledge, as then you may l…

And - what's your point?

Automation of mining is inevitable. Everything is actually.

It's like saying people still make bully whips just as cars are starting to hit mainstream - you are correct about the present - you are wrong about the future.

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#16

Post by olalonde »

confluence wrote: post #4

Is there a word for market based socialism? You know capitalism with hair cut upside (taxation) and a hard floor protected low side (poverty). For example - in a developed world most people don't want anyone (lest themselves) to starve, be unable to afford an education for their children, be unemployed or be unable to access life saving healthcare. However we must also encourage innovation and hard work (don't cap up…

An interesting solution to this is a negative income tax. I am generally libertarian leaning but I do think a negative income tax would be way better than a big government that provides various services. It allows capital markets to work properly while still providing for those who really need it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#17

Post by ifnspifn »

ekianjo wrote: post #2

It may not be obvious from the name of the publication, but Monthly Review is a Marxist magazine, therefore their view and what they publish is far from neutral. Regarding what Einstein had to say, it can be easily detracted by multiple arguments that are usually a cause of long and heated discussions on HN for those who do not understand economics and do not support free markets. Einstein was certainly a brilliant p…

To be fair, Einstein addresses his inexperience in the field of economics in the first few paragraphs, and argues that the "[facts deriving from the science of economics] belong to [Veblen's "predatory" phase, i.e. capitalism] and even such laws as we can derive from them are not applicable to other phases. Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future."

In other words, he claims that a lack of expertise in economics translates into an inability to describe the rules of a capitalist state, but not an inability to describe the resulting observable socioeconomic effects.

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#18

Post by dmorgan »

confluence wrote: post #4

Is there a word for market based socialism? You know capitalism with hair cut upside (taxation) and a hard floor protected low side (poverty). For example - in a developed world most people don't want anyone (lest themselves) to starve, be unable to afford an education for their children, be unemployed or be unable to access life saving healthcare. However we must also encourage innovation and hard work (don't cap up…

>Is there a word for market based socialism? You know capitalism with hair cut upside (taxation) and a hard floor protected low side (poverty).

It's what holds in most European countries with a welfare state (and, to a lesser degree even in the US). It has been called various things, from "the third way", to "social democracy".

Though, in Europe (and also in the US), the "free market" guys, neo-liberals and financial interest have reigned supreme since the Thatcher/Reagan era, with the dire results we see today. Kind of like the US economy actually worsened after Clinton, despite him being more "socialist" (to the degree accepted by the american public).

Re: Einstein: "Why Socialism?"

#20

Post by bootz15 »

johngalt wrote: post #6

What if the needs of society and the needs of the individual are in opposition? Who works the coal mines in socialism's utopia?

How are these conflicting? The people who cannot run a mine or start a new mine must work in one.

Oh, and the doctors take less pay because they like being doctors.

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