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Hacking Washing Machines [video]

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Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#11

Post by wpm »

landr0id wrote: post #9
bri3d wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LG appliances at least used to use acoustic signaling for diagnostics: hold a phone up and the washer makes some modem-esque (I think it’s 4-tone / 4-FSK) noises and the app or technician can diagnose issues. It was originally engineered to even work over voice codecs, so a customer without a smartphone could relay the diagnostic session to a technician.

>so a customer without a smartphone could relay the diagnostic session to a technician Do you mean by mimicking the noises themselves?

No you see you just need to buy specially marked boxes of Cap'n Crunch that have a plastic whistle in them that plays the tones for you.

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#12

Post by mjochim »

opello wrote: post #3
landr0id wrote: post #2

Pretty cool for BSH and Miele to hop on a call with the researchers just to make sure there were no issues they were unaware of. Sounded like it was productive and positive for everyone involved. Hopefully they don't start doubling down on hardware security though :p The optical communication for the Miele was pretty interesting too. I'm assuming it's to prevent moisture from corroding a port of some kind. Does anyon…

> I'm assuming it's to prevent moisture from corroding a port of some kind. The primary value discussed in the talk was electrical isolation since there's mains voltage in the appliance and the potential for shorts or inadequate isolation would require some kind of isolation, so a path that optically isolates the communication makes quite a bit of sense. I'm also curious if other devices have gone this route.

Electric meters often blink a signal LED for every X kWh, so other devices can read the signal. I'm not sure if this is used for bidirectional communications, though.

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#13

Post by AdieuToLogic »

Whenever someone brings up washing machines and software, I am always reminded of Forth[0]:

  As an example, imagine a microprocessor-controlled washing 
  machine programmed in Forth. The ultimate command in your 
  example is named WASHER. Here is the definition of WASHER, 
  as written in Forth:

    : WASHER  WASH SPIN RINSE SPIN ;
0 - https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/1-forth-stacks-dictiona...

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#14

Post by notpushkin »

landr0id wrote: post #9
bri3d wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LG appliances at least used to use acoustic signaling for diagnostics: hold a phone up and the washer makes some modem-esque (I think it’s 4-tone / 4-FSK) noises and the app or technician can diagnose issues. It was originally engineered to even work over voice codecs, so a customer without a smartphone could relay the diagnostic session to a technician.

>so a customer without a smartphone could relay the diagnostic session to a technician Do you mean by mimicking the noises themselves?

By holding their phone up to the machine.

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#15

Post by bigfatkitten »

mjochim wrote: post #12
opello wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm assuming it's to prevent moisture from corroding a port of some kind. The primary value discussed in the talk was electrical isolation since there's mains voltage in the appliance and the potential for shorts or inadequate isolation would require some kind of isolation, so a path that optically isolates the communication makes quite a bit of sense. I'm also curious if other devices have gone this route.

Electric meters often blink a signal LED for every X kWh, so other devices can read the signal. I'm not sure if this is used for bidirectional communications, though.

No, but they also have a separate infrared interface for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62056

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#16

Post by noAnswer »

imglorp wrote: post #7
bri3d wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LG appliances at least used to use acoustic signaling for diagnostics: hold a phone up and the washer makes some modem-esque (I think it’s 4-tone / 4-FSK) noises and the app or technician can diagnose issues. It was originally engineered to even work over voice codecs, so a customer without a smartphone could relay the diagnostic session to a technician.

That's some advanced gatekeeping right there. Where other appliances might have a blink code or several digit error display (Miele) to look up in a manual, the phone method tires you to the manufacturer.

The support hotline will ask you to hold your phone towards the device. It is less error-prone (than a human) and contains more info than a blink code. I find it really clever.

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#17

Post by NegativeLatency »

mjochim wrote: post #12
opello wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm assuming it's to prevent moisture from corroding a port of some kind. The primary value discussed in the talk was electrical isolation since there's mains voltage in the appliance and the potential for shorts or inadequate isolation would require some kind of isolation, so a path that optically isolates the communication makes quite a bit of sense. I'm also curious if other devices have gone this route.

Electric meters often blink a signal LED for every X kWh, so other devices can read the signal. I'm not sure if this is used for bidirectional communications, though.

Smart meters have a whole protocol

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#18

Post by eru »

opello wrote: post #3
landr0id wrote: post #2

Pretty cool for BSH and Miele to hop on a call with the researchers just to make sure there were no issues they were unaware of. Sounded like it was productive and positive for everyone involved. Hopefully they don't start doubling down on hardware security though :p The optical communication for the Miele was pretty interesting too. I'm assuming it's to prevent moisture from corroding a port of some kind. Does anyon…

> I'm assuming it's to prevent moisture from corroding a port of some kind. The primary value discussed in the talk was electrical isolation since there's mains voltage in the appliance and the potential for shorts or inadequate isolation would require some kind of isolation, so a path that optically isolates the communication makes quite a bit of sense. I'm also curious if other devices have gone this route.

Alternatively, I guess you could also use really thin cables to carry the low voltage paths; and that act as fuses, if ever a lot of current at high voltage was flowing across them? But probably not very reliable both in regular operation and as fuses.

We have a Miele washing machine and a Miele dryer. Solid machines all around even after years of use.

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#19

Post by [deleted] »

noAnswer wrote: post #16
imglorp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some advanced gatekeeping right there. Where other appliances might have a blink code or several digit error display (Miele) to look up in a manual, the phone method tires you to the manufacturer.

The support hotline will ask you to hold your phone towards the device. It is less error-prone (than a human) and contains more info than a blink code. I find it really clever.

[deleted]

Re: Hacking Washing Machines [video]

#20

Post by userbinator »

wpm wrote: post #11
landr0id wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so a customer without a smartphone could relay the diagnostic session to a technician Do you mean by mimicking the noises themselves?

No you see you just need to buy specially marked boxes of Cap'n Crunch that have a plastic whistle in them that plays the tones for you.

I wonder how many HN readers still get that reference (and 2600, etc.)
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