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What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

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Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#11

Post by the__alchemist »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #9
ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

Gold is a VERY unique metal and its value comes directly from that. Particularly the complete lack of oxidation, I'm sure it was seen as absolutely magic that it would not tarnish while every other metal known at the time would oxidize very easily. Value is ultimately always in the eye of the beholder.

Indeed. I believe the parent commenter should pause and assess why people buy things, and what makes something desirable or a luxury good. We can start with mechanical watches: They are of poorer quality by every utilitarian measure than a crystal-oscillator driven one, but command much higher prices and status.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#12

Post by ajross »

ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

To be fair, Adam Smith and Marx would 100% agree on this point. It's not "capitalist" to confuse money with value, it's just a mistake.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#13

Post by tylerflick »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #9
ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

Gold is a VERY unique metal and its value comes directly from that. Particularly the complete lack of oxidation, I'm sure it was seen as absolutely magic that it would not tarnish while every other metal known at the time would oxidize very easily. Value is ultimately always in the eye of the beholder.

> every other metal known at the time

You’re forgetting lead, but the point is all the same.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#14

Post by Herring »

aarroyoc wrote: post #4
ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

Yes, I often say that the gold from America was a poisonous gift. It made the country so rich that they stopped caring about other stuff, they could just buy them from elsewhere. So there was little incentive to manufacture first, and industrialize later. Which is ironic because some of first steam engines you can find in Europe were invented in Spain ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jer%C3%B3nimo_de_Ayanz_y_Beaum...…

It's a recurring theme. At the time of the Civil War, the Mississippi River Valley had more millionaires per capita than anywhere else in the US.

https://www.history.com/articles/slavery-profitable-southern...

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#15

Post by Retric »

ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

Gold is used by industry at current prices due to its physical properties, so its current price and value are fairly close.

This still allows for significant price swings because there vast quantities of gold sitting around in vaults, but unlike say bitcoin it does have high intrinsic value. IE: If gold sustained a 90% drop in price across decades at lot more would be used by industry creating a price floor.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#17

Post by empath75 »

ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

If gold is inherently valueless, then isn’t shipping all of it away immediately to other countries in return for useful goods the most rational thing to do?

And if they could get gold at a fraction of the cost of other countries and exchange it for useful goods, isn’t that more rational than building the goods yourself?

The Spanish were not stupid and were not acting irrationally — except perhaps thinking on too short of a time frame. The gold trade was a total moral abomination, but it was a good trade economically for hundreds of years.

The main problem was that it was basically an arbitrage play and once the margin got erased from inflation, they had let the rest of their economy atrophy.

This is one of the reasons the Saudis invest so much money in tech companies and other industries.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#18

Post by adastra22 »

mcc1ane wrote: post #16

> The problem was that the conquest of the New World left Spain with a lot more money, but not that much more wealth, if you follow me. ELI5, please!

Money is the thing you use to buy things. Wealth is having those things. Only in an ideal world are the two the same. The world is not ideal.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#19

Post by buildsjets »

tylerflick wrote: post #13
Scubabear68 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold is a VERY unique metal and its value comes directly from that. Particularly the complete lack of oxidation, I'm sure it was seen as absolutely magic that it would not tarnish while every other metal known at the time would oxidize very easily. Value is ultimately always in the eye of the beholder.

> every other metal known at the time You’re forgetting lead, but the point is all the same.

Lead rapidly oxidizes and tarnishes, and is reactive with many chemicals, as any person who has actually worked with it can attest to.

Re: What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World? (1985)

#20

Post by empath75 »

yieldcrv wrote: post #3
ggm wrote: post #2

Marx wrote about commodity fetishism. Perhaps the ultimate version is a belief gold is innately valuable. It has valuable properties, but almost its sole function is to be rare and desirable. That we now use gold for electronics in some ways undermines its rei-ification as the personification of value. Spain fucked up. They mistook the gold for something more valuable than Labor. The Merino sheep of Spain were a bett…

understanding what humans collectively find valuable is much more lucrative than understanding why humans collectively find a thing valuable being on this forum for a decade I see people consistently get caught up in the latter, at the expense of noticing the opportunities the same people are here for

One thing you can do when people are spending money on magic beans is point out that magic beans don’t exist and they are all stupid for buying them. The other thing you could do is open a magic bean store.
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