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The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

anandsanwal.me

11–20 of 101 posts

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#11
Most western countries have somehow decided over the last couple decades that small negative actions should mostly be free of negative consequences.

You can cheat on tests, shoplift in stores, and pretty much nothing will happen to you.

When teachers can’t give failing grades to students or kick them out of their class for blatantly breaking the rules, this is what happens.

Meanwhile I took a language exam in Japan last weekend where a bunch of people got kicked out of the room - instant fail - for using their phone during the break when it was expressly disallowed (we had to put it in a sealed envelope that we couldn’t open until the exam was over, break included). Given reports I’ve heard, I suspect at least a single digit percent of test takers failed the test this session simply for breaking this rule.

From the test takers who got kicked out of the room and tried to negotiate (unsuccessfully) with the proctors, it was instantly obvious who came from cultures where the consequences of rules are carried out and who didn’t.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#12
post #7

> To be clear, I’m not advocating for AI in real learning. AI is only useful right now as a stress test as it reveals how hollow adolescent work has become. If it pushes schools toward offering work with relevance, impact, and agency and away from hopeless busywork (“When will I ever use this?”), that is a win. But how will they ever know that if they don’t go through the process? I am not saying the current way of t…

> how taxes worked

Given that I worked with people well before the advent of LLMs who had no idea how marginal tax rates worked, it seems like we should be more aggressively pursuing this as an educational goal.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#13

You know, back in the day, teachers used to try and convey the "why" behind things like writing essays and reading books. Spark notes existed, but a good teacher could convey, hey, there is a reason we are doing this thing, it is because it has value outside the note that says you completed the task itself.

They still do this. The difference is, in my experience, is that parents are totally cool with their kids cheating. I've overheard parents openly mention it at line-up at school.

Hate to say "back in my day" but even as a millennial raised by laid-back parents I'd have been in deep shit if I cheated.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#14
post #11

Most western countries have somehow decided over the last couple decades that small negative actions should mostly be free of negative consequences. You can cheat on tests, shoplift in stores, and pretty much nothing will happen to you. When teachers can’t give failing grades to students or kick them out of their class for blatantly breaking the rules, this is what happens. Meanwhile I took a language exam in Japan l…

just curious - if they went through the process of providing sealable bags and (I assume) verifying the bags were in fact sealed - why not go one step further and require the sealed phones to all be placed in a bucket which could then be taken to another room to ensure no access, and also no interruptions during the exam from a rogue ring or alarm?

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#15
Big swing and a miss by the author here.

The learning is the point. Learning by nature shouldn't be optimized for efficiency. You learn deeply when you have to read sources, draw conclusions, synthesize information, and connect it to your own experiences. I recall writing essays in grade school and what mattered wasn't the end product but the process to arrive at the end product. The hours of research and analysis... figuring out what was true and what was questionable. When you skip steps 1-10 and arrive at the final deliverable a la ChatGPT, you miss the entire point of the assignment. Unfortunately, students are only judged on the final deliverable.

Truly, I think the only way we get back to real learning is through paper and pencil. The problem is that we've optimized our systems for learning efficiency, not learning efficacy.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#16
> the system loses legitimacy, defection becomes the dominant strategy.

Almost every sentence of this piece is a very powerful reminder that we're not really talking about education vs cheating and it's actually about real work vs optics, appearances vs reality, fake news vs information, and all the rest at the same time. A certain amount of bullshit is and always has been standard, and you see it in all kinds of folk wisdom (e.g. "the people capable of being politicians are the least qualified", "those who do not steal steal from themselves", "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent"). But in a very short period of time, society itself has shifted away from rewarding real effort or real results almost everywhere.

I agree that game-theory is a pretty good way to understand it, but the conclusions are pretty dark. Defection as the only available strategy and equilibriums that add up to large-scale attractors that we maybe cannot escape.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#17
This article doesn’t really jive with me. Homework is more about spaced repetition and the discipline to do it. The notion that it is about writing an insightful essay with a novel interpretation of an already well trodden topic is overly dramatic. Maybe that’s truly what happens at Ivy Academy but most of the children around me are filling in the blanks to conjugate verbs, practicing cursive, or doing some other variation of 10 - catpaw = 7? drill*.

At some point these kids will be faced with a timed pen-and-paper exam. The earlier you can show them what that’s like and how one needs to prepare for it the better.

On the other hand, I taught high school CS that was assessed solely with terminal examination. If you’re managing pupils whose mark comes from papers they write at home I concede the article’s point entirely!

* catpaw = 3

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#19
post #7

> To be clear, I’m not advocating for AI in real learning. AI is only useful right now as a stress test as it reveals how hollow adolescent work has become. If it pushes schools toward offering work with relevance, impact, and agency and away from hopeless busywork (“When will I ever use this?”), that is a win. But how will they ever know that if they don’t go through the process? I am not saying the current way of t…

> We had a mandatory home economics class that taught how to balance a check book, cook, do laundry, and even how taxes worked. Yet people still thought that class was bullshit and a waste of time.

Sounds about right. This author is talking about whether the kids think the material is important as if kids have good judgement and can be trusted. But that obviously is not the case. Kids are overconfident and ignorant and have no basis at all to determine what is and isn't good learning for them.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#20
post #11

Most western countries have somehow decided over the last couple decades that small negative actions should mostly be free of negative consequences. You can cheat on tests, shoplift in stores, and pretty much nothing will happen to you. When teachers can’t give failing grades to students or kick them out of their class for blatantly breaking the rules, this is what happens. Meanwhile I took a language exam in Japan l…

just curious - if they went through the process of providing sealable bags and (I assume) verifying the bags were in fact sealed - why not go one step further and require the sealed phones to all be placed in a bucket which could then be taken to another room to ensure no access, and also no interruptions during the exam from a rogue ring or alarm?

this would likely make the test administrators liable if any of the phones went missing.
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