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A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

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Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#11

Post by Atlas667 »

"Society does not consist of individuals but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand." - Karl Marx

My last few comments on this site have been precisely about these ideas. These ideas, in my view, are inherent flaws of philosophical liberalism, of which modern liberalism and conservatism stem. This ideology places itself at the forefront of morality, but can't even seriously analyze the conditions of the individual.

A rich heir is self made, but a poor man is morally and spiritually bankrupt. This is how far this modern ideology goes. Totally unscientific and is also the birthplace of modern racism.

This is how far the equality goes, that is, not very far at all. The liberal revolutions of the last ~400 years must be called the aristocratic revolutions. One where the organized aristocracy came into power, and so did their morals.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#12

Post by rimbo789 »

rayiner wrote: post #6
ramesh31 wrote: post #4

Go back a few generations for just about every wealthy family in the US, and it's nothing but slave (or highly exploitative) labor building on land and resources stolen from the indians. It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?". The whole "self-made" myth is nothing but a byproduct of white guilt all the way down.

Native Americans were here for tens of thousands of years. If it was so easy to use Indians’ resources to build a civilization, why didn’t the Indians do it? Your attitude is illogical cope. How could “WASPs” have gotten rich from stealing from a group of people they vastly outnumbered and who were primitive in comparison?

Given all the raping, enslaving, pillaging, and general genociding europeans did upon arrival to North America I don’t think we can say it was the First Nations that were “primitive”

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#13

Post by mc32 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #4

Go back a few generations for just about every wealthy family in the US, and it's nothing but slave (or highly exploitative) labor building on land and resources stolen from the indians. It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?". The whole "self-made" myth is nothing but a byproduct of white guilt all the way down.

Not all land was stolen. Much of it was bartered and sold. Tribes also vied for the pelt trade and would drive competing tribes out. The land we took from Mexico was only Spanish and Mexican on paper. Either one had as much control over the Apache/Comanche territory as Russia had over Alaska. Also the Apaches were driven out and nearly exterminated by the Comanche who remembered that they were nearly exterminated by the Apache when they got some stray horses and learned to ride them a century or so prior. The Mexican govt, wanting a buffer against Comanches, invited colonists from eastern states to colonize Texas in order prevent the raiding the Comanches were doing.

That is most of the territory was not under any tribe’s permanent control, nor was land in the west under control of Spain or Mexico before the Americans colonized it. Also lots of tribes were sworn enemies with each other and more than happy to collaborate with Europeans to drive out their enemy tribes with fewer losses to themselves.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#14

Post by [deleted] »

lazide wrote: post #9
ramesh31 wrote: post #4

Go back a few generations for just about every wealthy family in the US, and it's nothing but slave (or highly exploitative) labor building on land and resources stolen from the indians. It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?". The whole "self-made" myth is nothing but a byproduct of white guilt all the way down.

Wait, I thought it was the Jews that owned everything? Or was it the Freemasons? I can’t even keep track anymore. I can’t think of a single WASP billionaire though - maybe that’s the mind control at work?

[deleted]

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#15

Post by J0n3s1n »

rayiner wrote: post #6
ramesh31 wrote: post #4

Go back a few generations for just about every wealthy family in the US, and it's nothing but slave (or highly exploitative) labor building on land and resources stolen from the indians. It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?". The whole "self-made" myth is nothing but a byproduct of white guilt all the way down.

Native Americans were here for tens of thousands of years. If it was so easy to use Indians’ resources to build a civilization, why didn’t the Indians do it? Your attitude is illogical cope. How could “WASPs” have gotten rich from stealing from a group of people they vastly outnumbered and who were primitive in comparison?

[dead]

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#16

Post by jagged-chisel »

roarcher wrote: post #5

It's obviously true that nobody achieves things in a vacuum, since we all have some level of "privilege" given to us by our economic circumstances, the level of education available to us, our luckier heritable traits, etc. But for every successful person, there are countless others born to a similar level of privilege who squandered it. The claim that everyone owes their successes to the group ignores this.

> for every successful person, there are countless others born to a similar level of privilege who squandered it.

Indeed.

> The claim that everyone owes their successes to the group ignores this.

This doesn't follow. Can you elaborate?

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#17

Post by Atlas667 »

api wrote: post #10

In the debate between self made and team effort my opinion is “both.” Nobody starts from zero. Everyone builds on the work of others with help from others. At the same time, individuals can make unique contributions and are not just interchangeable parts. You see this over and over again in art, music, engineering, science, literature, etc., or really anything requiring skill. People aren’t interchangeable. I think b…

Yes, facts make it necessarily both.

But what does that mean? What is attribution? What is ownership? How does our legal framework work? How does the media speak about reality?

The reason for "great men" isn't that its true, it's that that's how our society is structured. These ideas come from how our property is structured.

If a person can own as much wealth as millions and the media is on their side; great men exist.

Like kings. Kings made sense at the time, and were great, not because they were strong, admirable, and morally good individuals, they were great because they owned all the land and could chop your head off or let you rot in jail for saying otherwise.

The reality of which you speak is not compatible with the implications of the world we live in. This truth about the world cannot exist practically, materially.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#18

Post by ramesh31 »

roarcher wrote: post #7
ramesh31 wrote: post #4

Go back a few generations for just about every wealthy family in the US, and it's nothing but slave (or highly exploitative) labor building on land and resources stolen from the indians. It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?". The whole "self-made" myth is nothing but a byproduct of white guilt all the way down.

> It's the uncomfortable answer behind the question of "Why do WASPs own everything?" The correct answer to that question is "they don't".

>The correct answer to that question is "they don't

Read the list and try to find a single non-WASP family: https://www.forbes.com/families/list/

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#19

Post by glimshe »

roarcher wrote: post #5

It's obviously true that nobody achieves things in a vacuum, since we all have some level of "privilege" given to us by our economic circumstances, the level of education available to us, our luckier heritable traits, etc. But for every successful person, there are countless others born to a similar level of privilege who squandered it. The claim that everyone owes their successes to the group ignores this.

I agree, but many will say that the ones who didn't squander it were simply lucky.

Re: A new myth appeared during the presidential campaign of Andrew Jackson

#20

Post by xboxnolifes »

roarcher wrote: post #5

It's obviously true that nobody achieves things in a vacuum, since we all have some level of "privilege" given to us by our economic circumstances, the level of education available to us, our luckier heritable traits, etc. But for every successful person, there are countless others born to a similar level of privilege who squandered it. The claim that everyone owes their successes to the group ignores this.

Owing your success to the group does not imply that the success itself is a guarantee. Just that without the group, the odds are many many times worse.
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