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Why top firms fire good workers

rochester.edu

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Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#11

Post by austin-cheney »

mcoliver wrote: post #4

No. The reason top firms part ways with good workers is usually political. Either the manager doesn't like the person regardless of their work abilities, or the manager is not politely savvy enough to ensure their team is being recognized for work that grows or is valuable to the business. Or they get caught up in the endlessly popular reorgs (again management failure). It's a failure of management. Nothing more. Not…

That has never been the case in my career. Perhaps things are different in the C suite or a startup but at the director level and below of an established company it’s always about money and headcount.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#12

Post by alexpotato »

My favorite example of why managers fire good workers:

- You are a manager of a team of 4

- You hear layoffs are coming

- You have one amazing direct report, 2 just ok and 1 awful

Who do you fire?

Most people say "Of course, fire the awful person"

I say: "When this actually happened, the manager fired their best person"

Other: "But, but why? That's not fair!"

Me: "You know layoffs are coming. You are the most expensive person on the team. If you fire the awful person there may be questions about why you even hired them. They then fire you and keep your amazing person as the manager (probably for less money).

You fire your best person, well then now you as the manager are the best person AND you can make the argument that that awful person needs 'more managing to be effective'"

It's not pretty or noble or heartwarming but this is how the logic goes in a lot of big firms (especially around layoff season).

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#13

Post by ameliaquining »

mcoliver wrote: post #4

No. The reason top firms part ways with good workers is usually political. Either the manager doesn't like the person regardless of their work abilities, or the manager is not politely savvy enough to ensure their team is being recognized for work that grows or is valuable to the business. Or they get caught up in the endlessly popular reorgs (again management failure). It's a failure of management. Nothing more. Not…

You're thinking of a different kind of company than the paper is talking about. (The headline, presumably written by the university's PR team, is a bit misleading about this.) The paper is about a certain kind of firm (e.g., the Big Four accounting firms, management consultancies like McKinsey, some elite law firms) that explicitly uses an "up or out" model, and explains why this kind of firm's business model (in particular, renting out the services of a particular employee to each customer) leads to this. The findings don't apply to other kinds of firms; e.g., in a typical big tech company, most engineers don't work primarily with a single customer, so the preconditions don't hold.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#14

Post by jppope »

As I understand it, the process is known as up or out (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_or_out) and exists due to a the known corporate structure required to do consulting work. I have no clue about its effectiveness, but all the work I've ever seen done by Deloitte, McKinsey, or PWC was mediocre at best which to me would signal that the process probably rewards a different incentive set than they intend it to. For the rest of us its likely a lesson in the power of branding. To quote Matt Damon: "(they are charging you for) an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library"

The only other thing I have to say about it is I have noticed a high correlation with the reports produced and the things employees have been telling management to do for a long time - that is to say, there is some utility to having an outsider provide the information... even if that information isn't novel at all.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#15

Post by blibble »

alexpotato wrote: post #12

My favorite example of why managers fire good workers: - You are a manager of a team of 4 - You hear layoffs are coming - You have one amazing direct report, 2 just ok and 1 awful Who do you fire? Most people say "Of course, fire the awful person" I say: "When this actually happened, the manager fired their best person" Other: "But, but why? That's not fair!" Me: "You know layoffs are coming. You are the most expensi…

the line manager is never gonna get that logic past their manager

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#17

Post by campbel »

blibble wrote: post #15
alexpotato wrote: post #12

My favorite example of why managers fire good workers: - You are a manager of a team of 4 - You hear layoffs are coming - You have one amazing direct report, 2 just ok and 1 awful Who do you fire? Most people say "Of course, fire the awful person" I say: "When this actually happened, the manager fired their best person" Other: "But, but why? That's not fair!" Me: "You know layoffs are coming. You are the most expensi…

the line manager is never gonna get that logic past their manager

This is why an org should have skip-levels. You can't put anyone on an island with that kind of unchecked authority and expect good results.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#18

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

alexpotato wrote: post #12

My favorite example of why managers fire good workers: - You are a manager of a team of 4 - You hear layoffs are coming - You have one amazing direct report, 2 just ok and 1 awful Who do you fire? Most people say "Of course, fire the awful person" I say: "When this actually happened, the manager fired their best person" Other: "But, but why? That's not fair!" Me: "You know layoffs are coming. You are the most expensi…

I have never seen someone fired over hiring a dud. Reasonable people know that hiring has smoke and mirrors - everyone is putting on their best fake persona to get in the door. Maybe in some toxic, cut-throat environments, but this seems very particular.

Firing the best person because they outshine the master is plausible. One of the 48 Laws of Power.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#19

Post by windex »

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust.

It's political and I have begun to strongly believe that the best leave or are schemed against by the mediocre cabal. You cannot continue in a large firm in India if you are anywhere near good.

Re: Why top firms fire good workers

#20

Post by vosper »

windex wrote: post #19

The method used in all the big4s in India is this: You join and do well as usual. Your credit is shared by those above you. You continue to do well, your manager gets promoted or you get a manager who needs a promotion and needs the credit you generate. He gets promoted, aggregates your good work and shows it as his. You then get sidelined, PIPed, or leave in disgust. It's political and I have begun to strongly belie…

Why would a manager who’s able to claim the credit of their reports in order to advance their own career then PIP the best ones? Wouldn’t they keep them around to keep claiming credit from?

I’m not doubting your story (I’ve never worked in India) I just don’t understand the incentive to fire a good worker in this scenario.

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