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Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

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Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#11

Post by ReptileMan »

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

>There are greater goals than growth at all costs.

Those greater goals are easier to achieve when you are the biggest economy of the world.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#12

Post by Pet_Ant »

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy depends on undocumented immigrants which function as disposable citizens. They function economically as citizens but don't consume resources and can be sent away as needed if they happen to be inconvenient.

I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy. It'd be like trying to beat the costs of Dubai's construction industry without enslaving Asians.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#13

Post by jayess »

Andrex wrote: post #6
anovikov wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem about it is that without growth, there's no way European pension commitments will be paid. Growth was baked into these promises and we don't have any.

What kind of stupid idiots would ever design a system that assumed indefinite growth? We get what we deserve...

Democracy. Vote yourself money.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#14

Post by groundzeros2015 »

Andrex wrote: post #6
anovikov wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem about it is that without growth, there's no way European pension commitments will be paid. Growth was baked into these promises and we don't have any.

What kind of stupid idiots would ever design a system that assumed indefinite growth? We get what we deserve...

What about a political outlook where nothing ever gets better in the future

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#15

Post by tacker2000 »

Andrex wrote: post #6
anovikov wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem about it is that without growth, there's no way European pension commitments will be paid. Growth was baked into these promises and we don't have any.

What kind of stupid idiots would ever design a system that assumed indefinite growth? We get what we deserve...

You have to go deeper than that, I think in the end our whole species’ goal is growth at all costs and this is subconsciously baked into every decision we make…

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#17

Post by saubeidl »

ReptileMan wrote: post #11
Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

>There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Those greater goals are easier to achieve when you are the biggest economy of the world.

That is true and the EU benefited greatly from that status pre-Brexit. However, it still has more than enough leverage to pursue said goals.

The key insight here, however, is that being the biggest economy in the world or growth is not a goal in itself. It is an enabler of all sorts of quality of life goals, but don't make the mistake of sacrificing the end for the means.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#18

Post by toomuchtodo »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7
Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. How do Europeans get rich enough to have that life you dream about in Europe once you're rich enough from making money in America to move there?

They do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil.

My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B. (Just one example, there are many)

https://finviz.com/map.ashx

(am American who splits his time in Europe, and agrees with thread parent Europe > US; the US is an extraction engine, at its core)

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#19

Post by groundzeros2015 »

Japan had a similar turn in the 80s, but unlike Europe they seem to have more of an alternative view of society and future.

Europe seems to effectively follow American culture and practices with a dampener. Being America with healthcare and college funds has not been much of a vision for the future.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#20

Post by hurrrr »

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Yes, but this only works as long as the economy remains competitive. Europe is rapidly squandering the human and economic capital it has accumulated over centuries, while the US and Asia continue to grow. Welfare exists as long as someone pays for it.
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