On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#11

Post by cheald » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:30 AM UTC

ryanb wrote: post #8

swang wrote: post #5

Gruber essentially tiptoes around the main problem. The iOS 6 map app was released before it was polished up to what people expect from Apple. "Oh Apple had to release it now or else Apple would have to release in a non major release!" Are you kidding me? The alternative being to release a terrible version that tarnishes their brand, that is way better alternative

His main suggestion is that Apple couldn't get enough data to make it good without launching the app, and they had to go ahead and release it at some point. The software works quite well - it's the dataset that's inferior.

Apple's been keeping logs of iPhone users' positions for ages. And they could have just sucked data out of user behaviors of the existing mapping solution if they needed something in a map context.

This smells of revisionism.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#12

Post by cheald » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:32 AM UTC

> Technically, they could roll such a thing out in a 6.1 or 6.2 update, but major changes — and I think everybody can agree this has been a major change, for users and app developers alike — should be delivered only in major new OS updates.

Well, I personally can't wait for OS XI, since by that criteria, Apple apparently hasn't released a major OS update since OS X yet.

Version numbers schmersion numbers. Ship it when it's ready.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#13

Post by rphlx » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:35 AM UTC

ryanb wrote: post #8

swang wrote: post #5

Gruber essentially tiptoes around the main problem. The iOS 6 map app was released before it was polished up to what people expect from Apple. "Oh Apple had to release it now or else Apple would have to release in a non major release!" Are you kidding me? The alternative being to release a terrible version that tarnishes their brand, that is way better alternative

His main suggestion is that Apple couldn't get enough data to make it good without launching the app, and they had to go ahead and release it at some point. The software works quite well - it's the dataset that's inferior.

Apple could have rolled out their map-app gradually to a few hundred thousand "specially selected" beta users before totally dropping Google Maps in iOS. Given Apple's religious following - many users would have probably paid to participate. It was unnecessarily risky and basically a product-management-screwup to force-convert everyone simultaneously.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#14

Post by amirmc » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:37 AM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #3

arpit wrote: post #2

I dont get why Maps releases are tied to OS releases. If the Maps api to other apps doesn't change, why can't maps be updated as other apps are?

Any big feature change makes for a good slide or two in the keynotes. They get once or twice a year to make a big impression on the press - dribbling out updates to core apps in the meantime would remove the buzz.

It's certainly made a big impression, though perhaps not the kind they were after. Revealing something in a keynote talk leads to more scrutiny so making a big deal out of something that isn't ready doesn't seem wise to me.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#15

Post by cwp » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:39 AM UTC

cheald wrote: post #11

ryanb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His main suggestion is that Apple couldn't get enough data to make it good without launching the app, and they had to go ahead and release it at some point. The software works quite well - it's the dataset that's inferior.

Apple's been keeping logs of iPhone users' positions for ages. And they could have just sucked data out of user behaviors of the existing mapping solution if they needed something in a map context. This smells of revisionism.

It's not position data that Apple needs, it's bug reports. Regardless of how much work you put into map data, at some point the only way to know if it's correct or not is to go there and see what things look like on the ground. Crowd sourcing is the only way to get to the quality level of Google Maps.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#16

Post by cheald » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:41 AM UTC

cwp wrote: post #15

cheald wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's been keeping logs of iPhone users' positions for ages. And they could have just sucked data out of user behaviors of the existing mapping solution if they needed something in a map context. This smells of revisionism.

It's not position data that Apple needs, it's bug reports. Regardless of how much work you put into map data, at some point the only way to know if it's correct or not is to go there and see what things look like on the ground. Crowd sourcing is the only way to get to the quality level of Google Maps.

Okay, I can buy that.

But, that basically means that Apple has drastically regressed the user experience in order to force users to help them build a product so that one day it might be able to compete with the product that they were already using for years, and suffer through cruddy data in the meantime. And they expected people to be okay with this?

Google is so far ahead on mapping that I doubt Apple will ever catch up. You're talking about volunteer crowdsourced data versus a company that literally has a fleet of cars and employees out scouring the world and mapping it in detail. Unless Apple decides to make a major play in mapping - not just in iOS, but in building a first-class mapping product to compete with Google Maps - I doubt that they're ever going to have data that'll match peoples' friends' Android-based mapping experiences, and that's going to leave a lot of people very sour on what is supposed to be the premium-brand smartphone.

I have a number of friends and acquaintences who have either already switched or are soon switching from their iPhone 4 to some Android-flavored phone specifically because they're so disappointed with the iPhone 5 + iOS6 combination, and no longer feel like it's the best option on the market. Pissing people off and losing them as customers is a pretty terrible price to pay for wanting to gather bug reports on location data.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#17

Post by ghshephard » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:45 AM UTC

This is one of those articles, that after you read it, you face palm, and go, "Of course."

I feel stupid not having come to the same assessment after hearing about when the dates were set.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#18

Post by ghshephard » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:48 AM UTC

arpit wrote: post #2

I dont get why Maps releases are tied to OS releases. If the Maps api to other apps doesn't change, why can't maps be updated as other apps are?

Maps are operating system features that any application can rely on being present. Their are OS APIs that require that the mapping infrastructure be present.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#19

Post by ghshephard » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:50 AM UTC

cheald wrote: post #16

cwp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not position data that Apple needs, it's bug reports. Regardless of how much work you put into map data, at some point the only way to know if it's correct or not is to go there and see what things look like on the ground. Crowd sourcing is the only way to get to the quality level of Google Maps.

Okay, I can buy that. But, that basically means that Apple has drastically regressed the user experience in order to force users to help them build a product so that one day it might be able to compete with the product that they were already using for years, and suffer through cruddy data in the meantime. And they expected people to be okay with this? Google is so far ahead on mapping that I doubt Apple will ever cat…

"Google is so far ahead on mapping that I doubt Apple will ever catch up. "

We're not talking rocket science here. If Apple wants to catch up to Google on mapping, they just have to invest time, money, and attention. We're talking at most two years for Apple to get where Google is today.

Re: On the Timing of Apple’s Map Switch

#20

Post by cheald » Thu, Sep 27, 2012, 3:54 AM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #19

cheald wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I can buy that. But, that basically means that Apple has drastically regressed the user experience in order to force users to help them build a product so that one day it might be able to compete with the product that they were already using for years, and suffer through cruddy data in the meantime. And they expected people to be okay with this? Google is so far ahead on mapping that I doubt Apple will ever cat…

"Google is so far ahead on mapping that I doubt Apple will ever catch up. " We're not talking rocket science here. If Apple wants to catch up to Google on mapping, they just have to invest time, money, and attention. We're talking at most two years for Apple to get where Google is today.

...at which point Google will be two years ahead of them. Mapping is Google's wheelhouse; it's an afterthought for Apple. I wouldn't bet on the hardware company ever beating the data company at mapping. Apple would have to become a fundamentally different company to seriously challenge Google's mapping offering.